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Author Topic:   Did the Biblical Exodus ever happen?
MiguelG
Member (Idle past 1976 days)
Posts: 63
From: Australia
Joined: 12-08-2004


Message 481 of 657 (612054)
04-12-2011 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Buzsaw
01-04-2011 7:54 PM


Re: Kadesh Barnea
Buzsaw writes:
Asgara writes:
Wasn't the majority of the 40 years of wandering spent in one place? Thirty-eight years spent in one spot, by supposedly millions of people, would leave huge middens all clustered around the area.
Yes. Thank you Asgara. I forgot that important fact. This was at Kadesh Barnea.
There is some debate about the location of Kadesh, but most reliable sources like Josephus etc believe that Kadesh was Petra where there was good water and protection.
This location has been occupied by other cultures which have obliterated any evidence of of the Israelites over the millenia.
2000 BC: Abraham at En-mishpat: En-mishpat means "Spring of Judgement" that was renamed Kadesh by the Hebrews during the Exodus. Genesis 14:7 says: "Then they turned back and came to En-mishpat (that is, Kadesh), and conquered all the country of the Amalekites, and also the Amorites, who lived in Hazazon-tamar."
1438 - 1400 BC: Kadesh-Barnea Hebrews spent 38 years at Kadesh Barnea with Moses and Joshua.
350 BC - 106 AD: Nabateans at Petra The Nabateans enlarged and enhanced the tomb city of the Hebrews. Everything we see today in Petra was the work of the Nabateans. Like Pharaoh in Egypt, the Nabateans removed all traces of the Hebrews in the multi coloured sandstone. Petra is a second use of the Hebrew Kadesh Barnea.
106 AD: Roman Petra: Arabia. The Romans annexed Petra and renamed it Arabia. Petra became the capital city of Roman Arabia.
100 AD - 400AD: Petra Josephus, Eusebius and Jerome all stated that Kadesh was at Petra.
Hi Buz,
Sorry, but your own example of the historical revisionism of the Egyptians doesn't help your cause. Even when trying to eradicate every tyrace of one person (like Hatshepsut or Akhenaten) the Egyptians could not prevent modern archaeology from uncovering more than just trace evidence of them.
Now you're saying that ALL the traces of an entire group of people numbering around 2 million were able to be obliterated by another group?
And by the way, Petra was never inhabityed by more than a few thousand people at any one time. It simply wasn't capable of sustaining that number. That's why the Nabateans constructed sophisticated water catchement systems to support even those few thousand.
Cheers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Buzsaw, posted 01-04-2011 7:54 PM Buzsaw has not replied

MiguelG
Member (Idle past 1976 days)
Posts: 63
From: Australia
Joined: 12-08-2004


Message 482 of 657 (612055)
04-12-2011 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Buzsaw
01-04-2011 8:08 PM


Re: Traces Of Israelite graves.
Buzsaw writes:
Asgara writes:
Buz, they almost ALL died in the wilderness. Their health when they died is irrelevant, the fact is they were all DEAD when they died. Millions of dead leave evidence in the desert.
But most would have been buried at Kadish which became occupied by other cultures over the millenia. What trace of the Israelite dead would you expect to be identifiable today? Note the link on that matter.
Once again I challenge you to provide evidence of such mass plundering of graves.
I'll play devils advocate for a moment and assume this was done. Later peoples found every single Israelite grave and removed the corpses and grave goods. Yes?
Where did they put the bones? Where did they stash the grave goods?
You're asking us to believe that all the bones, alll the distinctive grave artifacts just simply vanished by force of will?

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 Message 130 by Buzsaw, posted 01-04-2011 8:08 PM Buzsaw has not replied

MiguelG
Member (Idle past 1976 days)
Posts: 63
From: Australia
Joined: 12-08-2004


Message 483 of 657 (612058)
04-12-2011 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Buzsaw
01-04-2011 10:26 PM


Re: Corroborating Crossing Evidence.
Buzsaw writes:
Dr Jones writes:
What wheels Buz? Where are these alleged wheels?
The ones at Nuweiba. The ones in the midst of the corroborating evidence, that secularist marine scientists are reticent to research and falsify, concerned that they will confirm them to be valid.
These were the chariot wheels claimed to have been found by Wyatt? So where are they? Why has he not submitted them for testing? Where are the detailed photos? Where are accompanying artifacts (chariot wheels without ANYTHING else around them?)? Where is the GPS coordinate for the site? Why isn't it registered with the Egyptian Government?
It is people like Wyatt who bring disrepute to Biblical archaeology and therefore to our faith.
They are charlatans seking to agrandise themselves and not God.

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 Message 138 by Buzsaw, posted 01-04-2011 10:26 PM Buzsaw has not replied

MiguelG
Member (Idle past 1976 days)
Posts: 63
From: Australia
Joined: 12-08-2004


Message 484 of 657 (612061)
04-12-2011 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Buzsaw
01-06-2011 10:16 PM


Re: Say What?
Buzsaw writes:
jar writes:
Let's look at that evidence Buz, it was covered in Message 28 and in Message 36.
In Message 36 I provided a link to what water flow eroded rocks look like. They are rounded. They have been tumbled. There are no images of water eroded rocks at Horeb.
Did you even read my explanations as to why this is nonsense?
In addition, the rock claimed as the rock at Horeb is not at all unusual and I provided many links to similar split rock formations from all over the world.[/qs]
These other formations are straw-men examples, Jar. They have no corroborating relationship to the region in this discussion nor do they have anything resembling a waterflow. Even if they did, what would it prove relative to this debate? [/qs]
Well Buzz, I am using a Douay Rheims Bible. Here's what it says:
And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying:
Speak to the children of Israel: Let them turn and encamp over against Phihahiroth which is between Magdal and the sea over against Beelsephon: you shall encamp before it upon the sea.
And Pharao will say of the children of Israel: They are straitened in the land, the desert hath shut them in.
And I shall harden his heart, and he will pursue you: and I shall be glorified in Pharao, and in all his army: and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord. And they did so.
And it was told the king of the Egyptians that the people was fled: and the heart of Pharao and of his servants was changed with regard to the people, and they said: What meant we to do, that we let Israel go from serving us?
So he made ready his chariot, and took all his people with him.

--- Exodus 14: 1-6
Note the bolded part of the quote. Here God specifically says that it is Pharaoh that will think that the Israelites are confused and entrapped, not that they actually are.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 486 by arachnophilia, posted 04-12-2011 9:28 PM MiguelG has replied

MiguelG
Member (Idle past 1976 days)
Posts: 63
From: Australia
Joined: 12-08-2004


Message 485 of 657 (612063)
04-12-2011 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Buzsaw
01-06-2011 10:49 PM


Re: Reviewing The Evidence
Buzsaw writes:
I know a whole lot about Islam. ,.......
Clearly not enough?
Buzsaw writes:
For Islamists to ascribe to the Biblical exodus, would be for them to legitimize the nation of Israel. After all, Biblically, Jehovah promised the land of Canaan to the Jews forever. No?
No. Not at all. Islam does indeed support the fact that the whole of Exodus is as much a part of their religion as any other part of the OT. I'm surprised you don't know that having a copy of the Quran??
In fact Islam embraces not only Exodus but all of the Torah (or Tawrat as it is called in Islam). They also do not deny the Covenant of God with Israel.
They do state though, like us Christians, that Israel lost the specific title to being the 'Chosen People'.
Even a fanatical Islamist would not deny the Tawrat. That would be blasphemy.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 486 of 657 (612067)
04-12-2011 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 484 by MiguelG
04-12-2011 9:11 PM


it's a trap
MiguelG writes:
Note the bolded part of the quote. Here God specifically says that it is Pharaoh that will think that the Israelites are confused and entrapped, not that they actually are.
quote:
וְאָמַר פַּרְעֹה לִבְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, נְבֻכִים הֵם בָּאָרֶץ; סָגַר עֲלֵיהֶם, הַמִּדְבָּר
and pharaoh will say of the children of israel, "they are confused in the land, the desert has shut on them"
yes, that's what it says. and the very next verse says that god will then "strengthen pharaoh's heart". the implication is very much that pharaoh is being tricked. however, short of a miracle, pharaoh's assessment is correct. they are trapped, enough that the israelites comment on it a few verses down.
quote:
And they said unto Moses: 'Because there were no graves in Egypt, hast thou taken us away to die in the wilderness? wherefore hast thou dealt thus with us, to bring us forth out of Egypt? Is not this the word that we spoke unto thee in Egypt, saying: Let us alone, that we may serve the Egyptians? For it were better for us to serve the Egyptians, than that we should die in the wilderness.'
-- Exodus 14:11,12
so even the israelites think they're trapped. the only reason they're not is, as i said above, a miracle: god parting the waters, and allowing them to walk out of egypt on newly dry land.
Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 484 by MiguelG, posted 04-12-2011 9:11 PM MiguelG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 490 by MiguelG, posted 04-15-2011 12:57 AM arachnophilia has replied

MiguelG
Member (Idle past 1976 days)
Posts: 63
From: Australia
Joined: 12-08-2004


Message 487 of 657 (612072)
04-12-2011 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Buzsaw
01-28-2011 7:57 PM


Re: Explaining the Nuweiba Sea Bottom Topography
Buzsaw writes:
LOL, Theodoric. What the image shows is what the crossing site is today.
What you now seem to be saying Buz, is that there is no way of pinpointing the Exodus crossing using todays geography?
If that's so then why do you spend so much time presenting current geography as evidence of the Exodus?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Buzsaw, posted 01-28-2011 7:57 PM Buzsaw has not replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 488 of 657 (612080)
04-13-2011 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 480 by MiguelG
04-12-2011 8:24 PM


Re: Artifact Evidence, Etc
This is the verses that refer to who goes to the "Promised land"
KJV Numbers writes:
32:10 And the LORD'S anger was kindled the same time, and he sware, saying,
11 Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me:
12 Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite, and Joshua the son of Nun: for they have wholly followed the LORD.
13 And the LORD'S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed.
Edited by bluescat48, : typo

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 489 of 657 (612083)
04-13-2011 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 488 by bluescat48
04-13-2011 12:11 AM


Re: Artifact Evidence, Etc
So much for the claim that people lived longer back then. It only took forty years to "consume" all of those over twenty years old - a maximum lifespan of sixty years.

If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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MiguelG
Member (Idle past 1976 days)
Posts: 63
From: Australia
Joined: 12-08-2004


Message 490 of 657 (612365)
04-15-2011 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 486 by arachnophilia
04-12-2011 9:28 PM


Re: it's a trap
arachnophilia writes:
MiguelG writes:
Note the bolded part of the quote. Here God specifically says that it is Pharaoh that will think that the Israelites are confused and entrapped, not that they actually are.
quote:
וְאָמַר פַּרְעֹה לִבְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, נְבֻכִים הֵם בָּאָרֶץ; סָגַר עֲלֵיהֶם, הַמִּדְבָּר
and pharaoh will say of the children of israel, "they are confused in the land, the desert has shut on them"
yes, that's what it says. and the very next verse says that god will then "strengthen pharaoh's heart". the implication is very much that pharaoh is being tricked. however, short of a miracle, pharaoh's assessment is correct. they are trapped, enough that the israelites comment on it a few verses down.
quote:
And they said unto Moses: 'Because there were no graves in Egypt, hast thou taken us away to die in the wilderness? wherefore hast thou dealt thus with us, to bring us forth out of Egypt? Is not this the word that we spoke unto thee in Egypt, saying: Let us alone, that we may serve the Egyptians? For it were better for us to serve the Egyptians, than that we should die in the wilderness.'
-- Exodus 14:11,12
so even the israelites think they're trapped. the only reason they're not is, as i said above, a miracle: god parting the waters, and allowing them to walk out of egypt on newly dry land.
Hi Arachnophillia,
I did read that section too. However it seemed to me that the Israelites were railing at Moses for getting them into the fix of having their backs to the sea and the Pharao's army coming in quickly for the kill.
They weren't afraid of being lost in the wilderness, but of dying IN it, murdered by the Egyptians in an alien land which they could not even call home.
That's how I read it anyway.
I'm quite willing to be corrected, but I honestly can't see how those two verses imply that the Israelites were actually lost.
How could they be lost? God had given them specific directions:
"Let them turn and encamp over against Phihahiroth which is between Magdal and the sea over against Beelsephon: you shall encamp before it upon the sea."
Presumably the names were familliar to Moses, if not also to the Isarelites?
But if I've missed something from the original Greek or Hebrew texts please let me know.
Edited by MiguelG, : Added conclusion to post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 486 by arachnophilia, posted 04-12-2011 9:28 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 493 by arachnophilia, posted 04-15-2011 2:09 AM MiguelG has replied

MiguelG
Member (Idle past 1976 days)
Posts: 63
From: Australia
Joined: 12-08-2004


Message 491 of 657 (612367)
04-15-2011 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 489 by ringo
04-13-2011 12:39 AM


Re: Artifact Evidence, Etc
ringo writes:
So much for the claim that people lived longer back then. It only took forty years to "consume" all of those over twenty years old - a maximum lifespan of sixty years.
Hey Ringo,
I also pointed out to Buzz that the Bible only records the extreme longevity of a relatively few people of importance - kings, prophets etc.
There is no verse that states or implies that people in general lived longer then. In fact the very point the Bible makes is to stress this longevity - something which is obviously miraculous when compared to a normal human lifespan.

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 Message 489 by ringo, posted 04-13-2011 12:39 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 492 of 657 (612369)
04-15-2011 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 491 by MiguelG
04-15-2011 1:03 AM


Re: Artifact Evidence, Etc
MiguelG writes:
In fact the very point the Bible makes is to stress this longevity - something which is obviously miraculous when compared to a normal human lifespan.
As I've already mentioned in the thread, Buzsaw does a lot to undermine the miraculous with ideas like a "land bridge".

If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 491 by MiguelG, posted 04-15-2011 1:03 AM MiguelG has not replied

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 493 of 657 (612374)
04-15-2011 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 490 by MiguelG
04-15-2011 12:57 AM


Re: it's a trap
MiguelG writes:
But if I've missed something from the original Greek or Hebrew texts please let me know.
i think what you're missing is a pretty subtle point, and not so much to do with the language. it's more to do with the implications of the text, and context.
god did indeed give them very specific directions. those directions, evidently, led them into a bottleneck such that their only way forward was across a body of water. and the egyptians blocked the way back. for all intents and purposes they were trapped, and by god's own directions and actions. all, evidently, as part of a demonstration of god's power. god is setting it up so that only a miracle will save them.
this is quite consistent with the rest of exodus, leading up to this point. pharaoh is quite content to let moshe's people go, until god hardens his heart. then god sends a plague to punish egypt, a miracle to demonstrate that god is in total control. he does this ten times, each time with pharaoh relenting, until god hardens his heart again. god is essentially screwing over the israelites, intentionally, to prove a point.
and this is the culmination. he traps them at the edge of a sea, with the egyptians ready to very literally kill them, hardening pharaohs heart one last time... and then provides a most illogical escape route. right across the sea, on dry land. and then kills the egyptians, for good measure.
it's all building drama. it's part of the story. the only reason they weren't trapped was god's miracle.
now, far be it from me to support buzsaw, but if you're looking for geological features, they should such that there would be no escape route. of course, i think he's looking entirely in the wrong place.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 490 by MiguelG, posted 04-15-2011 12:57 AM MiguelG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 495 by PaulK, posted 04-15-2011 2:26 AM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 525 by MiguelG, posted 04-17-2011 11:27 PM arachnophilia has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 494 of 657 (612375)
04-15-2011 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 492 by ringo
04-15-2011 1:47 AM


Re: Artifact Evidence, Etc
ringo writes:
As I've already mentioned in the thread, Buzsaw does a lot to undermine the miraculous with ideas like a "land bridge".
as do a lot of "creationists". i wonder why that is. doesn't it kind of remove the whole point if the supposedly miraculous is easily explainable by natural phenomena? where does god go in all this?

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 495 of 657 (612384)
04-15-2011 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 493 by arachnophilia
04-15-2011 2:09 AM


Re: it's a trap
I'm going to disagree here, because you are missing part of the text. The Egyptians supposedly brought a large chariot force, while the Israelites were a huge mass of civilians with their women and children. There's no need for the terrain to be a trap - the superior Egyptian mobility would have been enough to force a battle. Chariots need open level space to work, though. So, if anything, the text implies open terrain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 493 by arachnophilia, posted 04-15-2011 2:09 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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