|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Love Wins - Rob Bell | |||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
This book hasn't been released yet but it is apparently stirring up a great deal of discussion. The obvious thing that it points out is that there is considerable disagreement within Christianity about the nature of hell and how you wind up getting there.
For whatever my view is worth I think that he is on the right track. His views reminds me of the book by CS Lewis called "The Great Divorce". Here is an article from USA Today on the book.
Love Wins by Rob Bell
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
slevesque Member (Idle past 4641 days) Posts: 1456 Joined: |
I see what his intentions are, but I think that he misunderstands the theology of Hell and God, at least in that small video in the usa today article.
Damn Hippsters!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
I think his view is becoming more mainstream. The view that in the end people choose between love of self and love of God. Nobody should be forced into an eternity with God against their wishes. His view is along the same lines as C S Lewis, Tim Keller and N T (Tom) Wright.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Marked Junior Member (Idle past 4760 days) Posts: 1 From: Eastwood, UK Joined: |
Hi.
in the end people choose between love of self and love of God. Does the book say whether or not Jesus has a role to play in any of this? I don't think the book is out yet, so perhaps we don't know yet. But I liked the intro vid.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
He does. This is from beliefnet:
quote: http://blog.beliefnet.com/...tics-heated-up-by-bells-hel.php
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
Here is a link to a Newsweek interview with Rob Bell on the interview. If you move the cursor to the 13 minute point you'll miss the introduction.
Newsweek Interview of Rob Bell about his book Love Wins
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
I have ordered the book from amazon but won't have it for another couple of weeks. It is certainly stirring up a great deal of controversy. Here is CNN's report on Bell and his book.
CNN on Rob Bell
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
I have finished reading the book. I found it very interesting. It isn't the typical evangelical point of view and he certainly has upset a number of his fellow evangelicals.
Personally I think that he is on the right track, (which of course assumes that I am ), but the only problem I had with the book is that I would like tohave heard more about what he specifically believes about his Christian faith. Here is a Time article on the book.
Is Hell Dead Actually I don't think the Time article accurately reflects Bell's beliefs about hell. Bell claims that he is not a universalist and I would agree with that. He does however assert, as do many others, that in the end those that wind up in hell choose it. This Time article mentions that he is a huge devotee of N T Wright as am I. I believe that his views on the subject are consistent with Wright's and for that matter Timothy Keller I see all three as being traditionally orthodox in their approach to scripture, Christ's bodily resurrection and the coming together of heaven and earth at the end of time as we know it. They all preach moral responsibility and that what we do in regard to our planet and the life on it matters eternally. Bottom line it does depart from the distorted Christian view that what matters is getting our theology right. As Rob Bell succinctly puts it "Love Wins" Edited by GDR, : No reason given. Edited by GDR, : Messed up the link Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Aware Wolf Member (Idle past 1420 days) Posts: 156 From: New Hampshire, USA Joined: |
quote: I don't see how it makes sense that anyone in their right mind chooses hell. Not unless hell really isn't all that bad, or they don't have all the information. I supposed someone suffering from depression or feeling very guilty over something they did may choose it, but that would be tragic and silly.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
GDR writes: ...the only problem I had with the book is that I would like tohave heard more about what he specifically believes about his Christian faith I only briefly read some of your links and such, but from what I can gather this is on purpose. That is, Rob Bell doesn't talk specifically about his beliefs because he doesn't think such things are important:
quote: This "freedom" that the love demands would encompass many of the specifics I would guess that you want to know. So, I would guess that even if you asked him directly, his answer would not be so much a specific answer as more of a general "let's not get hung up on details" dismissal anyway.
Actually I don't think the Time article accurately reflects Bell's beliefs about hell. Bell claims that he is not a universalist and I would agree with that. He does however assert, as do many others, that in the end those that wind up in hell choose it. The Hell Rob talks about is just 'separation from God,' yes? Not necessarily eternal torment in the generally direct fire/painful sense? In this way, I can see some folk choosing to be away from God... and therefore "choosing Hell."
Bottom line it does depart from the distorted Christian view that what matters is getting our theology right. I agree. I'm no Bible-scholar, but isn't that one of Jesus' main messages to the Pharisees? Not to focus on getting the theology right, but to focus on being a good person?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
Aware Wolf writes: I don't see how it makes sense that anyone in their right mind chooses hell. Not unless hell really isn't all that bad, or they don't have all the information. Rather than looking for a quote from Bell or the others I'll try it in my own words. In the 60's a couple of phrases that were popular was "looking out for number one" or "if it feels good do it". The point of these phrases that was that it was all about "me". In the end, and I believe that is very scriptural, (read Matthew 25 with the separating of the sheep and the goats), we choose between selfish love and unselfish love. If at the end we choose to hang on to our love of self and we reject a world that is characterized by unselfish love then we will have chosen hell whatever that looks like. C S Lewis wrote the book "The Great Divorce" which I think does a great job in a metaphorical way of making sense of this. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
Stile writes: This "freedom" that the love demands would encompass many of the specifics I would guess that you want to know. So, I would guess that even if you asked him directly, his answer would not be so much a specific answer as more of a general "let's not get hung up on details" dismissal anyway. I guess my point was that there has to be a foundation on which to build your case, and I would like to have present more detail on that. However, I understand what you're getting at and you are likely correct.
Stile writes: The Hell Rob talks about is just 'separation from God,' yes? Not necessarily eternal torment in the generally direct fire/painful sense? In this way, I can see some folk choosing to be away from God... and therefore "choosing Hell." I think it is pretty much like that. I think it is very hard to let go the of the traits that we pick up along the way in this life.
Stile writes: I'm no Bible-scholar, but isn't that one of Jesus' main messages to the Pharisees? Not to focus on getting the theology right, but to focus on being a good person? Largely yes. The Pharisees believed that they would be rewarded for "religiously" following a complex list of laws, (not totally unlike some churches today). MInd you, in their mind the reward would be God returning and establishing Israel as kingdom that would rule militarily over its neighbours. Jesus presented a very different picture. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
GDR writes: In the end, and I believe that is very scriptural, (read Matthew 25 with the separating of the sheep and the goats), we choose between selfish love and unselfish love. If at the end we choose to hang on to our love of self and we reject a world that is characterized by unselfish love then we will have chosen hell whatever that looks like. Is faith important at all? If so, which has priority? It's certainly possible for someone to experience and choose unselfish love over selfish love without using faith in Jesus (or faith in much of anything, really). Therefore, faith is irrelevant to one's eternal life placement?(Maybe this apathy towards faith is why so many are calling Rob Bell a heretic?) Where do you think faith fits into all this?Just a useful tool for some to find the path to unselfish love? Or something that's more... required for some other important message?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Aware Wolf Member (Idle past 1420 days) Posts: 156 From: New Hampshire, USA Joined: |
quote: Wouldn't the folks who are "overly" interested in themselves be even more likely to choose paradise over torment for themselves?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
Stiles writes: Is faith important at all? If so, which has priority? It's certainly possible for someone to experience and choose unselfish love over selfish love without using faith in Jesus (or faith in much of anything, really). Therefore, faith is irrelevant to one's eternal life placement?(Maybe this apathy towards faith is why so many are calling Rob Bell a heretic?) Where do you think faith fits into all this?Just a useful tool for some to find the path to unselfish love? Or something that's more... required for some other important message? I think that faith is crucial. The question is faith in what and for what reason. If we are talking about where we spend eternity then it is a matter of having faith in the Christ’s message of love, forgiveness, mercy, kindness, justice etc. I don’t see anywhere in the scriptures that those attributes will only be found amongst those that call themselves Christian. I suggest that scripture makes the case that not all followers of Jesus have it right either.
quote: Incidentally, scripture does indicate that the choices that we make in this life do have eternal consequences, so maybe it’s more than just a matter of either spending eternity with God in the new creation or being separated from Him for eternity whatever that looks like. Maybe our lives now will impact what our lives will look like in the next life whether we are in or out. Here is another verse in Matthew 7 that I think a number of people who call themselves Christian should ponder.
quote: Having said that I also believe that Christian faith is crucial. I believe that when an individual comes to believe in Jesus Christ and all that goes with that, then something changes. First off, when I say believe, I am not talking about just intellectual assent, but more importantly belief meaning that we trust in what Jesus taught and in what Jesus did for us on the cross. I contend that when someone makes that decision with both mind, and more importantly heart, that there is a change in that person’s life that is assisted by the Holy Spirit of God. I suggest that this change of heart that is experienced does bring about the change of heart in the direction that God desires of all of us. However, it is not just about salvation, but, and very importantly, it is about vocation. The Christian vocation is to be reflectors of Christ’s love, mercy, forgiveness, justice etc to the world and for the world, with the idea that the world gradually over time becomes a reflection of the one who created us. Christians are called to follow the example of Christ and be servants to and for the world. From personal experience I would agree that as often as not we do a miserable job of it, but still, that is the job we have been given to do. I’d add the note that becoming a Christian does not necessarily make me more Christ-like than my atheistic neighbour but it should make me more Christ-like than I had been previously. So yes,I believe that faith does play a crucial role in all of this. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024