Love Wins - Rob Bell

This book hasn't been released yet but it is apparently stirring up a great deal of discussion. The obvious thing that it points out is that there is considerable disagreement within Christianity about the nature of hell and how you wind up getting there.For whatever my view is worth I think that he is on the right track. His views reminds me of the book by CS Lewis called "The Great Divorce".Here is an article from USA Today on the book. Love Wins by Rob Bell

I think his view is becoming more mainstream. The view that in the end people choose between love of self and love of God. Nobody should be forced into an eternity with God against their wishes. His view is along the same lines as C S Lewis, Tim Keller and N T (Tom) Wright.

He does. This is from beliefnet:

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(RNS) Talk about hellfire! One of the nation's rock-star-popular young pastors, Rob Bell, 40, has stuck a pitchfork in how Christians talk about damnation.

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Pastor Bell's Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived, arrived in stores Tuesday (March 15).

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Critics pounced before the book was even published, provoking weeks of fierce infighting among pastors, theologians and anyone else who scans the Christian blogosphere.

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In Love Wins, Bell claims:

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Heaven and hell are choices we make and live with right now. "God gives us what we want," including the freedom to live apart from God (hell) or turn God's way (heaven).
Death doesn't cut off the ability to repent. In his Bible, Bell sees no "infinite, eternal torment for things (people) did in their few finite years of life."
Jesus makes salvation possible even for people who never know his name. "We have to allow for mystery," for people who "drink from the rock" of faith "without knowing who or what it was."
Churches that don't allow for this are "misguided and toxic."
Small wonder that traditionalists call him a false teacher of a Jesus-optional gospel, leading innocents to damnation and a traitor to the evangelical label.

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In an interview with USA TODAY, Bell jokes: "I am not aware that labels are the highest form of goodness and truth." He rebuffs critics who say he presents a Jesus-optional Christianity: "Jesus spoke of the renewal of all things. He said, 'I have sheep who are not of this flock.' Through him, extraordinary things are happening in the world."

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Bell's view is "that God is love, that he sent Jesus to show us that love, that love demands freedom. So making definitive judgments about other people's destiny is not interesting to me. The heart of God is to rescue everyone from everything we need to be rescued from."

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It's a mercy that Bell doesn't read his press or social networks.

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Justin Taylor of the Gospel Coalition, a network of traditionalist scholars and pastors, says Bell's views are "dangerous and contrary to the word of God. ... If Bell doesn't believe in eternal punishment, then he doesn't think sin is an offense against a holy God."

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It was Taylor's critique last month, based on reading a few chapters, that triggered explosive arguments radiating from Christian sites to CNN. Now that he has read all 200 pages, Taylor is even more convinced of Bell's errors.

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"Whether you like it or not, the Bible presents true teaching and warns against false teachers, even those who look like great people," says Taylor, digging at Bell's highly stylized videos circulating online and among churches coast to coast."

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But Richard Mouw, president of the world's largest Protestant seminary, Fuller Theological Seminary based in Pasadena, Calif., calls Love Wins "a great book," well within the bounds of orthodox Christianity and passionate about Jesus.

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The real hellacious fight, says Mouw, a friend of Bell, a Fuller graduate, is between "generous orthodoxy and stingy orthodoxy. There are stingy people who just want to consign many others to hell and only a few to heaven and take delight in the idea. But Rob Bell allows for a lot of mystery in how Jesus reaches people."

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(Cathy Lynn Grossman writes for USA Today.)

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http://blog.beliefnet.com/...tics-heated-up-by-bells-hel.php

Here is a link to a Newsweek interview with Rob Bell on the interview. If you move the cursor to the 13 minute point you'll miss the introduction. Newsweek Interview of Rob Bell about his book Love Wins

I have ordered the book from amazon but won't have it for another couple of weeks. It is certainly stirring up a great deal of controversy. Here is CNN's report on Bell and his book. CNN on Rob Bell

I have finished reading the book. I found it very interesting. It isn't the typical evangelical point of view and he certainly has upset a number of his fellow evangelicals.Personally I think that he is on the right track, (which of course assumes that I am ), but the only problem I had with the book is that I would like tohave heard more about what he specifically believes about his Christian faith.Here is a Time article on the book. Is Hell Dead Actually I don't think the Time article accurately reflects Bell's beliefs about hell. Bell claims that he is not a universalist and I would agree with that. He does however assert, as do many others, that in the end those that wind up in hell choose it.This Time article mentions that he is a huge devotee of N T Wright as am I. I believe that his views on the subject are consistent with Wright's and for that matter Timothy KellerI see all three as being traditionally orthodox in their approach to scripture, Christ's bodily resurrection and the coming together of heaven and earth at the end of time as we know it. They all preach moral responsibility and that what we do in regard to our planet and the life on it matters eternally.Bottom line it does depart from the distorted Christian view that what matters is getting our theology right. As Rob Bell succinctly puts it "Love Wins"Edited by GDR, : No reason given.Edited by GDR, : Messed up the link

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Rather than looking for a quote from Bell or the others I'll try it in my own words. In the 60's a couple of phrases that were popular was "looking out for number one" or "if it feels good do it". The point of these phrases that was that it was all about "me".In the end, and I believe that is very scriptural, (read Matthew 25 with the separating of the sheep and the goats), we choose between selfish love and unselfish love. If at the end we choose to hang on to our love of self and we reject a world that is characterized by unselfish love then we will have chosen hell whatever that looks like.C S Lewis wrote the book "The Great Divorce" which I think does a great job in a metaphorical way of making sense of this.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

I guess my point was that there has to be a foundation on which to build your case, and I would like to have present more detail on that. However, I understand what you're getting at and you are likely correct. I think it is pretty much like that. I think it is very hard to let go the of the traits that we pick up along the way in this life. Largely yes. The Pharisees believed that they would be rewarded for "religiously" following a complex list of laws, (not totally unlike some churches today). MInd you, in their mind the reward would be God returning and establishing Israel as kingdom that would rule militarily over its neighbours.Jesus presented a very different picture.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

I think that faith is crucial. The question is faith in what and for what reason. If we are talking about where we spend eternity then it is a matter of having faith in the Christ’s message of love, forgiveness, mercy, kindness, justice etc. I don’t see anywhere in the scriptures that those attributes will only be found amongst those that call themselves Christian. I suggest that scripture makes the case that not all followers of Jesus have it right either.

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21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles ?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.

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Incidentally, scripture does indicate that the choices that we make in this life do have eternal consequences, so maybe it’s more than just a matter of either spending eternity with God in the new creation or being separated from Him for eternity whatever that looks like. Maybe our lives now will impact what our lives will look like in the next life whether we are in or out.Here is another verse in Matthew 7 that I think a number of people who call themselves Christian should ponder.

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1 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 2 "For in the way you judge, you will be judged ; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

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Having said that I also believe that Christian faith is crucial. I believe that when an individual comes to believe in Jesus Christ and all that goes with that, then something changes. First off, when I say believe, I am not talking about just intellectual assent, but more importantly belief meaning that we trust in what Jesus taught and in what Jesus did for us on the cross. I contend that when someone makes that decision with both mind, and more importantly heart, that there is a change in that person’s life that is assisted by the Holy Spirit of God.I suggest that this change of heart that is experienced does bring about the change of heart in the direction that God desires of all of us. However, it is not just about salvation, but, and very importantly, it is about vocation. The Christian vocation is to be reflectors of Christ’s love, mercy, forgiveness, justice etc to the world and for the world, with the idea that the world gradually over time becomes a reflection of the one who created us. Christians are called to follow the example of Christ and be servants to and for the world. From personal experience I would agree that as often as not we do a miserable job of it, but still, that is the job we have been given to do.I’d add the note that becoming a Christian does not necessarily make me more Christ-like than my atheistic neighbour but it should make me more Christ-like than I had been previously.So yes,I believe that faith does play a crucial role in all of this.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Who knows what is in the heart of people. Maybe there are those who would find eternity in a selfless existence to be torment.

It seems to me that for a huge majority of us life in a world whose main feature is everyone for themselves would be intolerable. It would be hell.Edited by GDR, : Corrected wording

It is my contention that I worship a loving and just God. If God were to be an entity that punished for eternity those that didn't get their theology right then stop the bus and let me off. Who wants to worship a God like that? Frankly that would make heaven sound more like hell as it has turned Jesus' teaching around and make it all about me. It's no wonder that so many people leave the Christian faith when it is twisted into something that would have more in common with the Pharisees, (it's all about sanctimoniously keeping the laws), than it has with the teachings of Jesus.I don't have all the answers but I have no doubt that the loving just God that I worship will in the end treat everyone justly.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Frankly the Bible tells us a great deal more about our lives now than it does about heaven and hell in our future. A great deal of what is in the Bible uses Jewish apocalyptic writing which when interpreted in some literal sense loses the intent of the author. The point is that Jesus' teaching was for the lives that we lead in this existence, and if we do that with kindness and justice the next life will take care of itself. The Bible in my view tells us very little about the next life but does make it clear that there is one.However as to your post, I do believe that Heaven is wonderful and glorious and that Hell is a place of suffering. Compare the two. If Heaven is an existence where unselfish love is the norm, then just imagine what a wonderful existence that would be. Contrast that with a world where selfish love, where everyone is looking out for number one, is the norm and think what a hellish existence that would be.I suggest that life in Hell would just gradually continue more and more to dehumanize us until life as we know it would become virtually unrecognizable.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

The only nuance I would add is that one doesn't have to be religiously affiliated to live a life characterized by unselfish love, but it would be my contention that it is only possible because the choice is only there in the first place because of God. Obviously that is a faith issue as well. That is my view as well except that if the change of mindset is real then a change in actions is bound to follow. How this all works is one of the first questions I'd like to ask God so I am only offering what I believe to be the case. (By the way, in the next life I'm definitely going to all the lectures. )I think that we have to be open to wanting our lives changed and through that we are open to God's spirit to work in us and through us. If we do it as Christians I suppose the answer should be obvious, but for non-Christians I just don't know. I do know that God loves all of his creation regardless of religious beliefs so I'm inclined to think that the Holy Spirit is involved for everyone who desires a life of unselfish love. As I say, I'll get back to you in the next life with a definite answer. Actually I think we have stayed on topic as these are the things the book deals with.As to the importance of the Christian faith I see it this way. Is the story in the Christian Gospel true? Was Jesus Christ bodily resurrected? If it is true, then the Christian portion is crucial. If it is not true then there is no more reason to listen to what he has to say than any other man preaching a message of love and peace. It would make him the equivalent of Mahatma Gandhi.

We would agree that the heart formed choices that we make in this world matter but the big question is why do they matter.I'll just quote from the near the end of Rob Bell’s book.

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Jesus reminds us in a number of ways that it is vitally important we take our choices here and now as seriously as we possibly can because they matter more than we can begin to imagine.

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Wahtever you have been told about the end -
the end of your life
the end of time
the end of the world -
Jesus passionately urges us to live like the end is here
now
today.

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Love is what God is,
Love is why Jesus came,
and love is why he continues to come,
year after year to person after person.

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The Jews at the time of Jesus primarily believed that the point of being chosen by God was that it meant that they would be vindicated in this life and be allowed to rule establish a kingdom that would powerfully rule over their neighbouring pagan neighbours.Jesus said that it isn't what the kingdom model looks like.It seems to me that there are parts of the church today that have essentially the same message. I think there are those who believe that by believing the right stuff, by joining the right church they will be part of a kingdom that is vindicated in the sight of their neighbours, only now that belief has been put off to the next life.I and I would say that to a large degree the point of writing this book was to point out that once again a big chunk of the church has their kingdom message wrong. (This does make plain why there is opposition to it.)After the resurrection the message of the apostles was that Jesus was, and is, King and that Caesar isn't. So if Jesus reigns we should look at that model. Jesus was a servant King. He was prepared to reign by doing the lowliest of jobs. He washed the disciple’s feet.So yes, if the Christian Gospel is true, if Jesus was resurrected then it is crucial. That being the case I suggest that it is all important to do all that we can to know the truth about Jesus, because if it is correct then we have our world model all wrong and we should do something about it.How many leaders in our world do we see that actually have a servant’s heart. You and I are going to have to vote on a new government in about 11 days. Christianity calls us to humbly love kindness and do justice. Are those the qualities that we look for in our leaders? I’m inclined to think that most of us vote based on something quite different and that Jesus, if He were running, wouldn't get too far.I think that Bell makes out a good case and Love Wins’ is a worthwhile read.