Bible Question: What was the First Sin?

Oh come now! You just aren't looking at the right... ummm... special interest web sites.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

It would appear that the "serpent" got Adam&Eve thrown out of Eden, if we are to believe the christian myth of the fall. Conservative x-ians would say that Adam&Eve really did die in a spiritual sense, as YHWH warned them, but YHWH isn't specific on the matter. Some x-ians assume that Eve thought YHWH was testing her. Or they assume as I did that Eve was stupid and gullible. This seems to be where Jews,x-ians,& muslims get the silly idea that women are the "weaker-sex" as espoused by St.Paul. Well, the story I think, clearly is a brilliantly written myth by "Moses" to explain why men and women have differences, sexually and otherwise, and to explain why humans have a hard time living on earth. What was the first sin? My thinking is that it was probably sex-related, regardless of what the serpent may have done with Eve. AdamEve ate of the tree of the Knowledge of Good&Evil. The knowledge of WHAT good&evil?? The context seems to clue us in here. Adam was "lonely". Adam said, "NOW(WOW)this is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh"!!, Clothes were made to cover their "nakedness" AND Eve is now cursed with great pain in childbirth. I can hear YHWH complaining to his divine-counsel, "Why did those two do THAT without my permission? Blast-It! Now they can create like We can. We must limit them before they "eat of the tree of life", & overpopulate the planet!!"[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 10-15-2003]

Revelation 12:9. . . ."The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the world astray. . . "I know it's the New Testament, but I thought it was worth adding.Also, I always learned that the book of Job was one of the oldest (if not the oldest) books in the Bible. Job refers to Satan numerous times (all of chapter 1 involves Satan), so I don't think you can safely say, "Judaism had no concept of the devil."

Jewish concepts of Satan are totally different than Christian's. Satan is merely doing the job God gave him. Here is a great site discussing this from the Jewish perspectiveDoes Judaism Believe in Satan?------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato
gotta learn how to spell one of these days[This message has been edited by Asgara, 10-15-2003]

Job seems to be (edit)newer(edit) than Exodus at the very least - for example, " He divideth the sea with his power, and by his understanding he smiteth through Rahab" (Rahab is a name Egypt is frequently called). I've seen a lot of claims that it is the oldest than the pentateuch , but no evidence to back it. One thing that is interesting is the presence of Satan. Satan appears between 2nd Kings and 1st Chronicles - by replacing something that God had done in Kings (God had caused a census there; in Chronicles, Satan did it). Between Kings and Chronicles was the Babylonian captivity, so it seems that he was introduced at that time.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."[This message has been edited by Rei, 10-16-2003]

Job is generally considered to be the oldest book in the OT.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

The site you have referenced does jive with what I am learning about how people of different faiths other than christianity understand Satan. I was a christian at one time, and I did have this dualist belief that the angel Satan was over and against the christian god, as opposed to being just H's "robot" as you seem to believe. I understand now that the figure of Satan had evolved in the minds of some Jews in the last few centuries BC. One may pick up afew books on the subject of Satan if one is so inclined: "Satan, A Biography,

Hi Prozacman,One little clarification, I don't believe that Satan is God's robot. I personally don't believe in either one. I'm just arguing a poor plot line in a collection of very old books. ------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

You didn't address what I said - I stated that I've seen a lot of claims that it is the oldest, but not a single piece of evidence, and there seems to at least be a reference to the exodus in it - in addition to the presence of the character Satan, who doesn't show up otherwise until the Babylonian captivity, where earlier stories get changed by adding in his presence.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Good! I'm glad you don't believe that(YIKES!); Anyway it appears to be a Jewish idea. The early christians, especially St. Paul decided to more directly individualize Satan and make him oppose God.(see The Devil:A biography,Peter Stanford,pp.68-70). And there definitely is a poor plotline for Satan in the OT&NT. Satan seems to go from being "YHWH's obedient prosecutor" to an enemy of YHWH without spelling out exactly how & why it happened. The author I just referenced clues us in with the mention of a few of the intertestament books like Enoch, Jubilees,`Wisdom, Testament of Reuben(sandwich!), etc. He writes that these Apocryphal books help fill in the gaps in how Satan evolves. I hope to read some copies of these books in the near future, and reference them here on this forum for anyone curious.[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 10-16-2003]

And, not only adding in his(Satan's) presence, but also making him more malevolent and anti-YHWH as history proceeds. Cf. my reference to Asgara, #71, on "The Devil;A biography", Peter Stanford; a fascinating read.[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 10-16-2003]

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You didn't address what I said

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You're right. I didn't. Bad week. Sorry.The placement of Job in the Bible involves linking which other books reference Job in some way or other. The poetic style is also an issue. However, I am going to have to change my opinion. Looks like Job may not be the oldest. Gotta do more work.
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No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com[This message has been edited by John, 10-17-2003]

phil responds to me:

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Revelation 12:9. . . ."The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the world astray. . . "

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I know it's the New Testament, but I thought it was worth adding.

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But Revelation has nothing to do with Genesis.Or are you saying that anytime anybody uses the word "serpent," they're referring to the devil?The reason why the word "serpent" is used is staring at you right in the face. It has nothing to do with Genesis and everything to do with the fact that the author of Revelation is describing a DRAGON.

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Also, I always learned that the book of Job was one of the oldest (if not the oldest) books in the Bible.

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Not as old as Genesis.

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Job refers to Satan numerous times (all of chapter 1 involves Satan),

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Not as some creature that crawls around on its belly. Instead, Satan is a servant of god who does his bidding.

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so I don't think you can safely say, "Judaism had no concept of the devil."

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Um, the "Satan" in Job is not the devil as Christians understand him.In Hebrew "Satan" means "Adversary."You seem to be functioning under the idea that all of the Old Testament was written down at once. It wasn't. As Judaism evolved, new stories were developed. Judaism did, eventually, acquire a concept of a devil, but that concept is not present at the time of the writing of Genesis. It wasn't until the influences of Zoroastrianism came to Judaism that the devil started showing up.You can find many of the interesting shifts in Judaic history through the texts and how they treat the celestial hierarchy. Genesis starts with a mention of many gods. As the Old Testament continues on, it slowly coalesces into only one god from whom everything, both good and evil, come from. Then a split starts to happen and we see god as all-good and the devil as all-evil.So yes, at the time that Genesis was dreamed up, Judaism had no concept of the devil.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

The information I have is that the J text of Genesis was written between 848 and 722 BCE, E between 922 and 722 BCE, P before 609 BCE, and D about 622 BCE.Job was written sometime about the 5th century BCE.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

And a GOOD book on the 'J' tradition, if one hasn't read it yet is, "the Book of 'J', By Harold Bloom, 1990. Fascinating read.