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Member (Idle past 2960 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Does the Darwinian theory require modification or replacement? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
shadow71 Member (Idle past 2960 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
Theodoric writes:
If so could you please summarize it in your own words. I, for one. do not fully understand what they are trying to actually say. Please in layman's terms explain the point they are trying to make and how it supports your idea that evolution is directed.ABE Do you think non-random = directed? I was citing the paper by Perez to contradict miobiogirl's assertion that what Ho writes is bs. This paper is actually citing the paper written by Ho. To me this demonstrates some qualifed scientists do accept Ho as revelant and not a "nutbag". As far as epilgenetics goes, I do not fully understand it, but in the papers I have been reading the authors are saying "epigenetics" and other means of organismatic change may well be beyond the current theory, and there is a need for a new theory. I think non-random may be directed, but in what way I cannot say.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2668 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
To me this demonstrates some qualifed scientists do accept Ho as revelant and not a "nutbag". Couple of words about that paper. One. This paper has never been cited. By anyone. Ever.Two. It was published in a rinky dink backwater South American journal which no one cites. Source. That's pathetic. Seriously.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
shadow71 writes: Theodoric writes:
If so could you please summarize it in your own words. I, for one. do not fully understand what they are trying to actually say. Please in layman's terms explain the point they are trying to make and how it supports your idea that evolution is directed.ABE Do you think non-random = directed? I was citing the paper by Perez to contradict miobiogirl's assertion that what Ho writes is bs. This paper is actually citing the paper written by Ho. To me this demonstrates some qualifed scientists do accept Ho as revelant and not a "nutbag". As far as epilgenetics goes, I do not fully understand it, but in the papers I have been reading the authors are saying "epigenetics" and other means of organismatic change may well be beyond the current theory, and there is a need for a new theory. I think non-random may be directed, but in what way I cannot say. In other words you have no idea what anything you are posting means and you can not put any of these abstracts into your own words. In order to do that you would have to know what the words actually mean. Maybe you might want to read the responses that clearly showed that nonrandom is not the same as directed. But then why would you do that. You might learn something and we all know you have no desire to learn. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2668 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
As far as epilgenetics goes, I do not fully understand it... That's an understatement.
...but in the papers I have been reading the authors are saying "epigenetics" and other means of organismatic change may well be beyond the current theory, and there is a need for a new theory. That's going to be news to the scientists who have written over 51,000 papers on epigenetics. Source. And I betcha it's gonna be a big surprise for the folks that authored over 39,000 papers on epigenetics and evolution. Source.
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
You might want to look at Message 3. It appears we have not progressed very far since that point.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2668 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
No question about that, Jar.
What's a girl to do? I've spent the last two weeks just trying to get him to cite the literature.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2668 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
It looks like I'm not the only one linking her to Sheldrake.
Looking through the journal’s contents is certainly er.. interesting, even Rupert Sheldrake makes an appearance! And look who’s on the advisory board.. Mae Wan Ho a well known crack pot. eg see here: Water, Water, Everywhere, Part 3 - The Strangeness of Water & Homeopathic 'Memory' Source. And looks like she's a Discovery Institute girl. Source. Ho's an HIV denialist too.
In case anyone's interested: There were four names on the Discovery Institute's list of Darwin skeptics and on the list of HIV/AIDS doubters: Robert W. Bass, Bruce D Evans, Mae-Wan Ho, and Jonathan Wells. Source. And it looks like she has a problem with the first and second laws of thermodynamics.
Mae Wan Ho is another crank who believes that living organisms are able to violate the Second Law of thermodynamics. In the third chapter she even presumes, in a sure sign of crankitude, to rewrite the Second Law to fit with her idiosyncratic ideas ... If that weren't bad enough, she even claims that living organisms can violate the First Law. Source. Homeopathy, biophotons, morphic fields, quantum healing, radionics, polyphasic water, HIV denialist, antivaxer, Discovery Instituter, and she denies the 1st and 2nd laws of thermo! Now that's a CV!
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3646 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
Message 19 of 472 (609104)
03-16-2011 10:52 PM Reply to: Message 13 by jar 03-16-2011 8:22 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: Pretty much an irrelevant question.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- jar writes; If and when there is enough evidence for others to take Shapiro seriously, it's possible that the Theory will change again, but never to the extent that Intelligent Design or Special Creation will be more than stuff to laugh about. He is talking about natural genetic engineering that is nonrandom as I point out in reply to message 8 by taq. If in fact the theory does change in accord with Shapiro and others who are researching about a 21st century theory of evolution that does not rely on random mutation, but rather information in the cell that engineers change then Special Creation will become something that Science will have to deal with. It isn't necessary.Triggering of engineearig change mechanism it could'nt mean Special Creation, but just an order by the "thinking" neural system.(see Theory of Neuro-genic Evolution).
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3646 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
NoNukes writes: shadow71 writes: When he talks about system architecture and read write memory systems this is not random and is as close to deterministic as you can get without using the word. If you could explain to me why read write memory system implies a deterministic mutation process I'd sure appreciate it. The quoted paragraph merely says that cells access stored information. I'm familiar with the information systems Shapiro refers to in his analogy, but there is no reason to believe that mutations or errors in those system ought to occur deterministically. Where does Shapiro suggest anything more than non-random mutations? Uh.. Never mind. I see some of the answers to my questions in the paper. We must admitt that non-random mutations have an element of determinism.How could it be otherwise? But determinism need not be Special Creation.
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3646 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
Taq writes: When he talks about system architecture and read write memory systems this is not random and is as close to deterministic as you can get without using the word. What is not random? Chromatin binding? DNA binding complexes? Protein-DNA interactions? DNA methylation? What specifically is not random? All of them and maybe others as well, if they are triggered off by Special Creator or by "thinking" neural system.
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3646 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
Dr Adequate writes: If in fact the theory does change in accord with Shapiro and others who are researching about a 21st century theory of evolution that does not rely on random mutation, but rather information in the cell that engineers change then Special Creation will become something that Science will have to deal with. No it won't. One more actual known physical mechanism contributing to evolution would not be a reason to put more credence in imaginary supernatural mechanisms. I agree partially. But it should be areason to allow different ways of thinking to be heard of,even these ways outrun the limits of current Theory.
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2960 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
papers by Massimo Pigliucci do indicate that the modern synthesis does need a radical modification.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2133 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
papers by Massimo Pigliucci do indicate that the modern synthesis does need a radical modification. So are you hoping that the "radical modification" will help creationists? That's not the way to bet. Every time some theory in science is modified, or even occasionally replaced, the resulting body of theory tends toward increased accuracy. And for several hundred years that has meant away from superstition, scripture, dogma, and wishful thinking. I should think that the last thing creationists would want is for scientific theories to become more accurate! Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
shadow71 writes: papers by Massimo Pigliucci I'd never heard of the guy, but there are some videos on youtube with Pigliucci debating Kent Hovind and Robert Allen. Massimo handles himself pretty well.
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Granny Magda Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 3.8 |
Hi Shadow,
Still desperately trying to make the ToE go away and stop interfering with your religious fantasy life I see. Good for you. Why let a little thing like reality get in the way of a good daydream.
papers by Massimo Pigliucci do indicate that the modern synthesis does need a radical modification. But you can't be bothered to cite them so that we can all judge the truth of this for ourselves. Nice. Very nice. Meanwhile;
Massimo Pigliucci writes: Despite most talks at this year's evolution meetings being about normal science, there were also hints here and there that some major change may be on the horizon. A few researchers devoted their time to rather exotic-sounding evolutionary mechanisms, such as genetic assimilation and epigenetic inheritance. While this is not the place to get into a detailed discussion of technical issues, these mechanisms have the potential of significantly augmenting the theoretical arsenal of evolutionary biological theory, adding so far unsuspected sources of variation and complexity to our understanding of the biological world. Epigenetic inheritance, for instance, is a phenomenon by which non-genetic material (e.g., methyl groups attached to the DNA, used by the cell as switches to signal which genes to activate or keep silent) can be replicated and passed from one generation to another. The phenomenon has been suspected for decades, and solid empirical evidence in favor of its existence is now fast accumulating. We still don't know how widespread epigenetic inheritance is, and we don't have a detailed theoretical framework to include it into standard evolutionary theory, but one gets the feeling that once such requirements will be fulfilled, the current paradigm in the field will be significantly altered.
Do these new potential developments represent the possibility of what Kuhn called a paradigm shift, that is a dramatic change in the way we understand evolution? I doubt it. In fact, biology is a clear example of a science that has proceeded at least since 1859 (the year of the publication of Darwin's Origin of Species) without any such shift. The fundamental Darwinian insights that all life on earth share a common descent, and that natural selection is a major mechanism of diversification of biological forms, are still valid and at the core of evolutionary theory. Yes, much has been added by modern population genetics, molecular biology, paleontology, and developmental biology — both empirically and conceptually. But none of these additions have in any way undermined the foundations of the Darwinian edifice. This is different from what happened in geology before and after continental drift was recognized, or in physics when Newtonian mechanics was superseded by Einstenian relativity. In fact, the last paradigm shift in biology — ironically enough — occurred when Darwin convincingly rejected William Paley's arguments for intelligent design as an explanation of biological diversity. That is why the modern intelligent design movement promises not an advancement of science, but a regress to a previous, scientifically unproductive, paradigm. Emphasis mine. And since I can be bothered to cite my sources, you can go find that text here at Pigliucci's blog Rationally Speaking. So, would you care to tell us in which paper Masimo Pigliucci disagrees with Massimo Pigliucci? Mutate and Survive On two occasions I have been asked, — "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage
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