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Author | Topic: The UK Election!!!! | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Tell us what to do oh mighty leader.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
To be a fair test though, we'd have to see if 8 people under similar system could form a parliamentary system with any more ease, which I suspect we wouldn't be able to. It has been my position throughout that whatever the flaws of our current system it has been put into place piece by piece in such a way as to have adapted and evolved to suit the context and scale at which it is required to function. It is exactly this pragmatic adaptation that I think Legend is failing to recognise the benefits of with his suggested abandonment and replacement with an untested alternative. But having said that I do get what you are saying (if I remove my point scoring hat and instead replace it with my more reasonable ‘let’s try and make this work’ hat)
Mod writes: And rather than pile all the pressure onto Legend.... I originally intended this to be a quick practical test of direct democracy as outlined by Legend in Message 293. It was Legend who said that his idea of direct democracy would utilise a forum format much like this one as a method of raising and filtering issues. I maintain that there are some serious problems with this that he has failed to consider. I also think that highlighting these by trying that methodology with a few people is a (far from perfect admittedly ) method of highlighting the scale of the issues that would be faced if this were extrapolated to 40 million plus potential participants.
I'm sure it's more complex than that, and I don't feel like delving into Swiss politics right now, but maybe that is an interesting spring board for this thread? Yes. Again with my more constructive hat on I agree.But I still think we need some input from Legend if we are to continue down this path as the whole direct democracy thing is his baby. But the Swiss model may well be worth looking at if we do progress any of this at all.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Mod writes: The website can be found here. I suppose this is a 'good start' for Legend - what do you think? The deep cynic in me says that it is the current government's way of justifying it's ideological position by seeking ill considered and largely reactionary public opinion in those areas where it thinks those two things are compatible. The optimist in me believes that this is a whole new form of politics, that a new dawn has broken, and that we can look forward to a politics of people-power that none of us could have even envisaged before May this year. Guess which of the two versions of me is winning that internal struggle.... Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
A decent synopsis. And now we have the Labour party soul searching it's identity and looking for it's next leader.
I am seriously considering joining the Labour party so as to be able to vote on that issue. AbE - I was a member as a student but gave up membership at the point they started (outrageously in my view at the time) wanting to charge me a membership subscription. Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
We in the UK are having a referendum!! The first in 30/40 years and (I believe) only the second one ever.
We are voting on whether to change our parliamentary electoral system from First Past The Post to AV (Alternative Vote) AKA Instant Runoff (in the US). Any thoughts? Any Aussies who have experience of AV? Any UK members who have actually voted? I voted YES this morning. Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
A year ago there seemed to be a broad consensus that electoral reform was needed. Since then the mood has changed and it is looking increasingly unlikely.
Certainly it is looking like something of a landslide for the 'No's in this referendum.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Mod writes:
The only argument against AV of those you cite that I think has any real merit is the last one. Coalition government does arguably result in manifesto pledges being completely discarded on the basis of coalition "compromise". Thus making political manifestos little more than wish lists. However I am unconvinced that manifesto pledges were much more than that anyway. And (assuming the Lib Dems haven't wiped themselves out in the longer term with their current unpopularity) the UK seemed to be heading for a 3 party system where coalition would be the norm even via the first past the post system. It isn't the most considered of reasons but I think the whole system could have benefited from a shake-up generally. On top of that I do think that a 'No' in this referendum marks the effective death of any more progress on any electoral reform for a considerable amount of time. Whereas AV, if implemented and found wanting, would have been the first step towards something else. Out of interest - Did you vote and if so what for? Feel free to ignore that question if you don't want to answer it however. Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Mod writes: We should have used to av to dtermine which out 5 or 6 voting systems is preferred. That would have been a really really good idea. And a genuinely good use of AV. Oh well.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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Tram writes: Of course, Americans are superior and the whole world should just assimilate into American culture. Alas much of the world seems to unthinkingly agree.....
Tram writes: 3... 2... 1.... (**sizzle**) True world domination is with a smile and a burger rather than a bang.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Are the Lib Dems assigning themselves to electoral oblivion by signing up with the tories? Or are they astutely playing the long game whereby coalition government becomes the norm?
AV defeat was obviously a blow to the Lib Dems but before (and including) the last general election Britain was looking like an increasingly 3 party place. Is coalition government the likely future or just a current situation no more or less likley to occur again than it ever has?
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
As I understand it the coalition agreement is between the two parties and not (in theory) dependent on any particular leader of either party being in place. If Clegg were run over by a bus or revealed to be a secret axe murderer or something there is no inherent reason why another leader of the Lib Dems couldn’t be elected and the coalition carry on as is. However in the more likely event that Clegg is deposed as Lib Dem leader because his party are unhappy with the direction he is taking them in then a renegotiation of the coalition agreement would seem to be inevitable with a new leader in place. The coalition would then either continue under that new agreement or the coalition would officially end and an election take place I guess.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
It's the Euro elections in the UK tomorrow.
The anti-EU party UKIP look set to do well. If the European parliament becomes filled with representatives who want to disband the European Union what will happen?
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
I am delighted to see that London didn't join the UKIP bandwagon. At least nowhere near to the extent that most of the rest of the country seems to have done. Possibly because Londoners, whatever their individual political views, know that foreigners living next-door or the existence of a mosque within a ten mile radius or people of the same sex holding hands in the street - doesn't result in the end of the world and civilisation as we know it.
Poor Liberal Democrats. I am actually starting to feel sorry for Nick Clegg. He looks about ten years older than he did a fortnight ago. I'm not sure a change of leader would even make that much difference. All the Lib Dem voters I know voted Lib dem in the 2010 general election on the basis that the Lib Dems were advocating policies broadly left of labour and voting reform. They ended up complicit with a right-wing conservative austerity government and a referendum on changing the voting system that their conservative 'partners' hobbled ruthlessly. Those looking for leftwing social democratic policies of the sort the Lib Dems used to advocate seem to have either turned to labour or gone green. Those who don't particulalrly like the tories but won't vote labour seem to have abandoned the Lib Dems too. It's hard to imagine the set of people who have transferred their vote from Lib dem to UKIP given the massive disparity in policies. But they must exist to some extent.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Mod writes: Local councils don't have influence on foreign affairs, European policy or immigration. So why? Firstly - I'm not sure most UKIP voters have thought things through to the extent of considering what areas of policy influence individual votes in different elections have any bearing on. Secondly - A lot of the UKIP bandwagon seems to be based on the notion that swathes of foreigners are being given free access to council houses, school places and other local resources ahead of born-and-bred-locals. These things are under local government control so presumably UKIP councillors would be relevant to exposing or stopping such practises (should such things be occurring)
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
AZ writes: And the prospects for next May? Reasonable for UKIP to eclipse LibDem as the third party? In terms of percentage of the vote - It's just possible. But due to the vagaries of the first past the post system that won't translate into actual Members of Parliament. The Lib Dems will still all but certainly be the third party in terms of number of MPs. Current projections suggest they will be down from the present 56 seats to 30 odd. Meanwhile UKIP will be doing well to get a seat or two. It's not about how many vote for them across the country so much as how disparate or concentrated the vote is in each individual seat.
AZ writes: I hear another hung parliament coming Highly likely.
AZ writes: Who gets to the queen first, Conservative/UKIP or Labour/LibDem coalitions? A Lib/Lab agreement of some sort is looking the most likely I would say.
AZ writes: You guys know how to put some drama into an election. Well it has to be said that all this genuine multi-party politics is a relatively new phenomenon over here.
AZ writes: Over here it's all clowns and smoke between TweedleDem and TweedleRep: no spoilers, just who steps on their dicks less often. Your guys do have bigger dicks than ours......
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