Osama Bin Laden Gets What He Gives

Though I am not an Obamite I think President Obama said it very succinctly and appropiately ‘And tonight, let us think back to the sense of unity that prevailed on 9/11. I know that it has, at times, frayed. Yet today’s achievement is a testament to the greatness of our country and the determination of the American people.’Why can we not congragulate the men and women in our government and the military on a job well for taking out the most notorious mastermind of terrorism in todays modern world, and leave it at that.Stop using this victory for your own political tirades.This should be a time of unity for America, not divisiveness. Let's not bring politics and political rhetoric into this great day of justice and freedom. Remember this is a victory not just for America but for literally millions around the world living in fear and tyranny. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

So I take it you condone the terrorism that followed in OBL wake and were willing to live with and accept AQ terror-strewn activities at home and abroad. You do not think that taking out OBL was a good thing? Really?Sorry not hip on Jack Bauer. Shows to me that you can't differentiate between fiction and reality. How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. When did I ever say that this event would have no impact on modern political affairs? It certainly does. My plea is that is should not. This should be a time of unity not devicive poltical bantering. Of course people on both sides will use this as a political tool for their own manipulation. However, hopefully other will take the road less traveled. This event goes beyond mere emotions. We did what we had to do to prevent further evil from continuing, bottom line. Were emotions involved sure. However, I can assure you that the military or any other services related career does not run on pure emotion day in and day out. It runs on a sense of duty and commitment for doing what is right. Do some people betray this commitment, of course, However that does not negate the vast majority who want to serve and help their fellow man. I think freedom and security to practice that freedom go hand in hand. Is not one less mass-murdering terrorist a good thing? Bitterness and hatred which are well founded. I hate to say it, but maybe one day you will understand if you ever fall victim to it. It is easy to make little quips from the comfort of your own home without experiencing it yourself. And what irony is that praytell?Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

By standing up to terrorism instead of cowtowing as some countries do to the demands of mass-murdering maniacs. What is your point. I think we all agree that politics and propoganda are prevalent in all forums including this one. My point is what the heck does Jack Bauer have to do with taking out Bin Laden? What political reality do you think I am ignoring? What does this have to do with the Berlin Wall or Tiananmen Square. If you bring these other events you need to make the connections. Ok, critique away. I am a big boy. Just be able to back up your assertions. And being the token spoiler with little to back up your claims does nothing. I walked down the pier today and boarded my ship. Guess what, not much has changed in my daily military duties accept an increase in military security. No one was high fiving each other or yelling about getting Bin Laden. It was, in a way not much different than any other day in the Navy. In fact, very few people talked about the event. It was all very somber and nonchalant.You want to know why? Because this event was just one event in a long chain of events taken to neutralize the potency of worldwide terrorism. However, it is not the end of this chain. We in the military KNOW this is not the end of terrorism and tyranny. We KNOW the price of freedom and at what cost it comes. We KNOW what we have to continue to do irregardless of whether the public takes notice or not.In bunkers and rooms around the world, military personnel worldwide sat with silent resolve as they watched what unfolded on Sunday KNOWING that taking out Bin Laden was not the end. In fact they knew that this could potentially increase threats against our military forces. Bin Laden was as much an enemy of Muslims as he was of us. In fact, I would claim he was more an enemy of the Muslims, betraying their very trust.Really, you can sit there in the comfort of your house as you make these baseless remarks caring less the blood spilt to protect your freedoms.You know nothing about me. So don't sit there and stereotype me. I work with many Arabs and Muslims in the military. I have friends of all colors, creeds and ethnicities. I have been deployed four times to the middle east. I would venture that I know more of these people than you ever will. I would say there are many Muslims who do at the least. I am not bitter. Just sad that we could not have prevented the senseless murder of literally tens of thousands and more due to the actions of this one man. I am sad that you really do not understand the destructiveness this one man caused in the world. You really have no clue why people are happy to see this man gone. It is akin to you criticizing family members of vicitims of a mass murder for being relieved and at peace at seeing the murder executed. I really don't understand your contempt for those who are happy one less murderous bastard is taken out. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

Did I ever say that the US was the only country to fight terrorism??However, the USA military and CIA worked nearly unilaterraly in this one event (taking down Bin Laden in a surgical strike) so they can take the credit for this. Not to say that other countries like GB have not done there part on other terrorist fronts i.e. the fight against the Taliban in Afghanistan. Who is saying it isnt?? Who is the one putting words in my mouth? Um ok. Are you saying taking down the most notorious terrorist on Earth who masterminded the plot to kill thousands of Americans as well as tens of thousands of Muslims is not a significant achievement? Not of #1 on the World's most wanted terrorists list. [/qs][/qs]Here: Know you can't even remember what you yourself wrote. I feel like I am arguing with a child. When did I try to silence your dissenting opinion? Who is being ignorant here. What does Bin Laden have to do with the Berlin Wall? Really?!? Please you have still not made a connection. I wouldn't be 'discussing' on this board if I didn't care to 'discuss the issues'. Your logic baffles me. So you think we should have just stayed at home and done nothing after Al Queda terrorists made numerous attacks not just on our soil but our embassies around the world. Isolationism did not work in WWII and would have been disasterous if we did not do something after 9-11. Easy to say as you complicitly accept the protection of your freedoms from those who put their lives on the line. It is no use arguing sense with you. If you feel that nothing was accomplished nothing I say will convince you. Have a nice life. Really you think removing Bin Laden from the picture diminishes all of human life. You are really warped. So I guess if one of your family members or friends was murdered by this bastard you would have no compulsion or desire to want to take this guy out. You would care less if he got of scott free in a court of law and go out to continue his murderous rampage. Speaks alot about your sense of morality and your willingness to tacitally condone his actions by doing absolutely fucking nothing, essentially spitting in the face of the victims of 9-11 and those who put their lives on the line to protect your freedoms.

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"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

I was not addressing the crowds of US citizens celebrating in the streets at the demise of Bin Laden. You missed my point entirely.
Truthfully I am not to hip street dancing and chanting to celebrate anyone's death. My impressions is that a lot of the people doing this are young immature adults with little life experience or just people caught up in the moment who do not see the hypocrisy of their actions when viewed by the Muslim world.I apologize if I came off a little strong, it was only to hammer my point home not meant to personally attack anyone. However, there is nothing wrong being relieved and feeling a sense of justice at the demise of a mass murderer. Agreed. I am not arguing this. You guys act like it is a sin to be happy that this mass murderer is dead. You act like we should never had pursued this guy to justice and then act all distraught that we have the audacity to conduct a surgical strike to take out someone who killed over 3000 Americans and god knows how many other people around the world. God forbid we actually take action and kill a truly evil person who had no regard for life. What is the difference between my 'rant' and yours? Mere words to trying to make a point. I see no difference between the two. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

Good post Rhavin. I agree whole-heartedly. I would suspect most of the people who were directly affected by 9-11, are not the ones partying in the streets. My suspicion is that most of the partyers are young people with little life experience who are caught up in their emotions.

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"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

I was not a big supporter of the Iraqi war either and believed we should have pursued Al Queda in Afghanistan before trying to tangle with Huessein in Iraq.However, how praytell could we neutralize Al Queda and Bin Laden without going to the source of his operation in Afghanistan? You really think Bin Laden would have just stopped at 9-11 and not continued his attacks if we had not gone into Afghanistan immediately following 9-11?What actions do you think we should have done since you are evidently smarter than all the US military leaders combined in the last decade.Did we make misakes. Of course. Did we sometimes cause flashback on our own presence in the Middle East. Of course. However, what is the alternative? Sometimes we have had to pick the less of two evils. However, I do not regret our pursuit and removal of Bin Laden from the picture. This I believe was a victory not a mistake.

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"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

How do you think we attained the intelligence to capture Bin Laden? Al Queda was much larger before we went into Afghanistan. Afghanistan for all intensive purposes was run by the Taliban and Al Queda in the 90's. Al Queda was severelly crippled only after a concerted attack by NATO forces in the region. Stategic strikes can only work if we have the intelligence to act on them. Once the 9-11 attack occured, Bin Laden went underground and became very elusive. It was only after whittling down Al Queda and capturing some of their key members were we able to get this intelligence.

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"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

You and I do not have the details on this operation to make an intelligent critique on how it should have been conducted.Have you ever been in a surgical fire-fight on foreign soil taking down the most infamous terrorist on the planet? No, than I don't think either of us have room to criticize how this went down. It could have gone very, very badly, i.e. the Seal Team captured and tortured or killed while conducting the raid. You and I do not know if there was a choice in killing him or not. Again we do not have all the details. Believe me I think Pakistan can be a good ally for us, but it is evident that this is a country divided in its commitments considering that Bin Laden was located right under the noses of Pakistan military (adjacent to many homes of ISI and active duty/retired Pakistan army officers and only 500 or 600 yards from a Pakastanian military academy). Pakistan only recently decided to start 'cooperating' in the war against terrorism and only because we provided monetary aid to the country. In the 90's and earlier this decade Pakistan harbored and provided aid to the Taliban and Al Queda in their fight against the democratic United National Front movement of Afghanistan.If we attempted to get permission from Pakistan before the attack, it is very plausible that someone in the Pakistan government would have tipped of Bin Laden with possibly disasterous results.

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"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

The problem is, we did not have time to wait to let Al Queda strike again. Al Queda forced our hand by striking on home soil in the same way Japan forced our hand at Pearl Harbor in 1941.

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"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

Easy to say this in the comfort of your home.Sorry I really don't have any sympathy for this guy. You can't blame them for taking him out especially after the adrenaline fueled fire fight with the body guards and his wife rushing at them. Even highly trained professionals like the Navy Seals are not going to put there lives on the line in hopes that Bin Laden was not armed. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

It is easy to be criticle of our decisions when looking through the rear view window. In the 1980's the Soviet Union was still a viable threat. That is why we covertly supported the Mujahideen's battle against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. This was a very hush, hush support in which few in the government were aware of, much less the general public.And yes I know what blowback is. Again easy to say when looking back in history. Ha ha, never heard this one before. Taking cheap potshots does nothing to help your argument. You don't have a leg to stand on if you have no experience in this area. We did not create Bin Laden anymore than we created Saddam Husein (who we also supported in Iraq's war against Iran). These people are adult human beings who made decisions to turn their anger and wrath against America even before we went into Iraq and Afghanistan. Our physical presence in the Middle East was minimal in the 1970s and 1980s. It wasn't until the terrorists started bringing the war onto home soil that we started hitting back.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

Granted. I meant minimal in relation to our involvement now. Minimal was probably the wrong word to use. You are not stating the other side of the story. That we were attempting to counterbalance the soviet influence in the middle east. Our involvement in the ME has waxed and waned all the way back to WWII.As far as our Naval presence in the ME, this was to provide stability to the region after the first Gulf War and to counteract Iran's attempt to mine the Straights of Hormuz to monopolize the oil exports out of Bahrain, Kuwait, Iraq and other Persian Gulf states.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

So says you. I am sure in retrospect some decisions were shown to make matters worse not better however to label them all as criminal and immoral is painting with a broad brush of ignorance of why these decisions were made. Each should be analyzed for historical context of why they were made and what were the resulting consequences of these decesions. No one supported these attrocities when they occured. If we had known these very same people would turn on us we would have never supported them in the first place. Again, easy words to say in retrospect. I am not familiar with this. If you can provide evidence I will investigate further.Of course there are actions and decisions that our government later regrets having made (i.e. Bay of Pigs invasion, etc). However, again we can not predict the future (sometimes disastrous). Again we have to see what the context of these decisions and why we made them at the time. I would say though that we have for the most part as a country made good decisions over bad ones through history in our effort to promote democracy around the world.Of course mistakes (again sometimes disastrous) have been and will continue to be made. However, for the most part we are a promoter of good will around the world and I will never be ashamed to be called an American or to have served in the US military. Again you are distorting the facts. All of the figures shown above were provided solely by Saddam Hussein's government not by any outside entities.Maybe the following will help shed light on the inaccurate claims in laying the blame on America when it really was the result of the Iraqi government itself (Saddam Hussein) who was guilty of deliberately mismanaging tens of billions of dollars in humanitarian aid as shown below: She made a statement she later regretted making. I agree though it was poorly worded and sounded inhumane in context to the question. I disagree. Have we made mistakes as Americans. Of course. Do we have a policy of deliberately murdering innocent people and children. Of course not. We are not the evil people you make us out to be. You do not even acknowledge the billions of dollars in aid and military support we provide to people around the world on a daily basis (i.e. our military provided humanitarian aid to Japan and Haiti in the latest news). Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

Even after a week after the raid on Bin Laden's compound we do not have the full, complete and accurate story on how the raid went down. However, as more information comes out it sounds like the Seals had to make split second decisions after a fire-fight with Bin Laden's courier and a couple of people that rushed them. An AK-47 was found within reach of Bin Laden when he was killed.Latest account of events (from Reuters): And from ABC: Again, enough resistance existed to precipitate shoot to kill actions of the Seals. Just as in police raids unless hostages were thought to be involved, raids typically will have shoot to kill orders to protect those conducting the raid from being injured and killed themselves. The Seal team went into the compound not knowing the amount of armed resistance that they would face and so anticipated (correctly) the worst. No one can fault them for this.More was gained from the material evidence in the compound than probably would be gleaned from keeping Bin Laden alive. Also, with Bin Laden alive and in US custody this could spark more violence than taking out the head of Al Queda.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World