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Author Topic:   The Authoritarians
Coragyps
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From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 6.1


Message 1 of 14 (389921)
03-16-2007 6:04 PM


Im about halfway through The Authoritarians, an online book from a Canadian/American psychology professor named Bob Altmeyer. So far, it's a remarkable study of personality types - particularly Religious Right types and others that think in that manner. Interesting, anyway.

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/


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RAZD
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From: the other end of the sidewalk
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Message 2 of 14 (389958)
03-16-2007 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Coragyps
03-16-2007 6:04 PM


chapter 1
quote:
We would expect authoritarian followers especially to submit to corrupt authorities in their lives: to believe them when there is little reason to do so, to trust them when huge grounds for suspicion exist, and to hold them blameless when they do something wrong.

Scooter Libby.


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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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Tusko
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From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 3 of 14 (390568)
03-21-2007 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Coragyps
03-16-2007 6:04 PM


That was a fun read for the layman... well, when I say fun, I actually mean really scary.

I think that last chapter was really necessary - because all that high RWA bashing started to make me feel a little bit uneasy.

Assuming he's right, what can be done about this? It seems like an insurmountable problem really, doesn't it?


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Minnemooseus
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Posts: 3469
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 4 of 14 (613724)
04-26-2011 10:12 PM


John Dean - Conservatives without Conscience
I thought there was a much larger "Authoritarians" topic somewhere, but I couldn't find it.

Anyway, much belatedly, I got into reading "The Authoritarians". But now I've gotten sidetracked into reading the John Dean book "Conservatives without Conscience", which Bob Altmeyer cites in his book. It was John Dean that encouraged Altmeyer to write the topic theme book.

"Conservatives without Conscience" was originally intended to be a John Dean / Barry Goldwater collaboration, but Barry's health took a turn for the worse before such could happen.

Anyway, I've just gotten through the 28 pages of preface, which was quite interesting in itself.

Basically, I'm giving the book a plug.

http://en.wikipedia.org/.../Conservatives_without_Conscience
http://www.amazon.com/...-Conscience-John-Dean/dp/0670037745

Moose


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nwr
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From: Geneva, Illinois
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Message 5 of 14 (613730)
04-26-2011 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Minnemooseus
04-26-2011 10:12 PM


Re: John Dean - Conservatives without Conscience
I thought there was a much larger "Authoritarians" topic somewhere, but I couldn't find it.

You were perhaps thinking of this one.

I have a lot of respect for the post-Watergate Dean.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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Minnemooseus
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Posts: 3469
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 6 of 14 (613733)
04-26-2011 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by nwr
04-26-2011 11:06 PM


evcforum.net's main "Authoritarian" topic now found (link enclosed)
Now I found it (before I had searched topic titles for "Authoritarians", the desired topic was sans "s"):

Are You an Authoritarian?

That topic is currently at 132 messages.

Moose

Added by edit - But there is also a lot of messages at the Dreamcatcher topic NWR linked to.

Edited by Minnemooseus, : See above.


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Minnemooseus
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Posts: 3469
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 7 of 14 (613852)
04-28-2011 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by nwr
04-26-2011 11:06 PM


Re: John Dean - Conservatives without Conscience
I have a lot of respect for the post-Watergate Dean.

It would have been nice to have had Barry Goldwater as a co-author. Would the current version of the right-wing accuse him of not being a "real conservative"? Maybe they'd declare him to be a liberal.

Bottom line - It would have much greater impact, to have Barry being the one critical of modern conservatism.

Moose

Edited by Minnemooseus, : Change ID.


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Coyote
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Message 8 of 14 (613870)
04-28-2011 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Minnemooseus
04-28-2011 3:17 AM


Re: John Dean - Conservatives without Conscience
It would have been nice to have had Barry Goldwater as a co-author. Would the current version of the right-wing accuse him of not being a "real conservative"? Maybe they'd declare him to be a liberal.

I think Goldwater was a great example of a "classical liberal."

From Wiki:

Classical liberalism is a philosophy committed to the ideal of limited government, liberty of individuals including freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly, and free markets.

This is in opposition to social conservatives, who believe in few of these ideals and would love to see their particular brand of religion mandated by the state.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add link.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 14 (613874)
04-28-2011 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Coyote
04-28-2011 10:41 AM


Re: John Dean - Conservatives without Conscience
Would you consider the Koch brothers "classical liberals"? By way of a more recent example?
This message is a reply to:
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Coyote
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Posts: 5540
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 10 of 14 (613877)
04-28-2011 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by crashfrog
04-28-2011 11:24 AM


Re: John Dean - Conservatives without Conscience
Beats me. Don't know much about them.
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Minnemooseus
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From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 11 of 14 (615281)
05-12-2011 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Coyote
04-28-2011 10:41 AM


Barry Goldwater was a liberal? Compared to what?
Coyote writes:

It would have been nice to have had Barry Goldwater as a co-author. Would the current version of the right-wing accuse him of not being a "real conservative"? Maybe they'd declare him to be a liberal.

I think Goldwater was a great example of a "classical liberal."

From Wiki:

Classical liberalism is a philosophy committed to the ideal of limited government, liberty of individuals including freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly, and free markets.

This is in opposition to social conservatives, who believe in few of these ideals and would love to see their particular brand of religion mandated by the state.

From your source:

quote:
Classical liberalism developed in the 19th century... {snip} Classical liberals established political parties that were called "liberal", although in the United States classical liberalism came to dominate both existing major political parties.

Are you not referring to a 19th century political philosophy that was adopted by mainstream modern conservatives (including Barry Goldwater)? Are not today's social conservatives some mutant (neo-conservative???) niche that has strayed from "true conservatism"? They are the ones that want government to keep out of the peoples personal business, except where they want government to intrude into peoples personal business. The ones who might think of Barry Goldwater as being a liberal? Are you one of them?

Moose

Edited by Minnemooseus, : Forgot to change subtitle.


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


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Coyote
Member
Posts: 5540
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 12 of 14 (615327)
05-12-2011 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Minnemooseus
05-12-2011 12:07 AM


Re: Barry Goldwater was a liberal? Compared to what?
Are you not referring to a 19th century political philosophy that was adopted by mainstream modern conservatives (including Barry Goldwater)?

Yes.

Are not today's social conservatives some mutant (neo-conservative???) niche that has strayed from "true conservatism"?

I do not consider the modern "social conservatives" to be conservatives at all.

They are the ones that want government to keep out of the peoples personal business, except where they want government to intrude into peoples personal business [added--to enforce their particular religious beliefs].

Exactly.

The ones who might think of Barry Goldwater as being a liberal?

Barry Goldwater was a "classical liberal" (see Wiki description below). Today's social conservatives probably see him as being a (modern) liberal. Just another thing they are wrong about.

Are you one of them?

A social conservative? Not hardly. Wash your mouth out with soap!

wiki writes:

Classical liberalism is a philosophy committed to the ideal of limited government, liberty of individuals including freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly, and free markets.

Classical liberalism developed in the 19th century in Western Europe, and the Americas. Although classical liberalism built on ideas that had already developed by the end of the 18th century, it advocated a specific kind of society, government and public policy required as a result of the Industrial Revolution and urbanization.[2] Notable individuals who have contributed to classical liberalism include Jean-Baptiste Say, Thomas Malthus and David Ricardo.[3] It drew on the economics of Adam Smith, a psychological understanding of individual liberty, natural law and utilitarianism, and a belief in progress. Classical liberals established political parties that were called "liberal", although in the United States classical liberalism came to dominate both existing major political parties.[1] There was a revival of interest in classical liberalism in the 20th century led by Friedrich Hayek and Milton Friedman.[4]

In the late 19th century, classical liberalism developed into neo-classical liberalism, which argued for government to be as small as possible in order to allow the exercise of individual freedom. In its most extreme form, it advocated Social Darwinism. Libertarianism is a modern form of neo-classical liberalism.[5]

The term classical liberalism was applied in retrospect to distinguish earlier 19th-century liberalism from the newer social liberalism.[6] The phrase classical liberalism is also sometimes used to refer to all forms of liberalism before the 20th century, and some conservatives and libertarians use the term classical liberalism to describe their belief in the primacy of economic freedom and minimal government. It is not always clear which meaning is intended.


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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15468
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 13 of 14 (615447)
05-13-2011 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Coyote
05-12-2011 9:53 AM


Re: Barry Goldwater was a liberal? Compared to what?
Some quotations from Goldwater on the "religious right". Includes his famous "who do they think they are?" speech and the immortal line "Every good Christian should line up and kick Jerry Falwell's ass."

On the other hand ... (Note that some parts of this article are shifty and disingenuous. Also that it comes from a conservative thinktank, but I repeat myself.)


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Coyote
Member
Posts: 5540
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 14 of 14 (615463)
05-13-2011 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Dr Adequate
05-13-2011 4:33 AM


Re: Barry Goldwater was a liberal? Compared to what?
Some quotations from Goldwater on the "religious right"...

And he was correct, wasn't he?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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