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Author Topic:   If our sun is second or third generation, does this not conflict with Genesis ?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 231 (615498)
05-13-2011 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Taq
05-13-2011 12:48 PM


Re: Age Of Sun
Taq writes:
What NoNukes is trying to say is that stars the size of Sol and smaller (that are still stars and not gas giants) have very long lifespans compared to larger stars. 30 million years is a drop in the bucket for a 10 billion year lifespan (the expected overall lifespan of our Sun before it expands into a red giant).
Exactly so. The theoretical minimum mass for a main sequence star is are about 7-8% of the mass of the sun. The smallest known star is about 12% of the mass of the sun.

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 Message 38 by Taq, posted 05-13-2011 12:48 PM Taq has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 231 (615501)
05-13-2011 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Buzsaw
05-12-2011 9:54 PM


Re: Science?
Buzsaw writes:
The record tells us that one of the primary functions of the sun was to initiate the 24 hr day. Clearly implicated is that before day five, we have no knowledge as to how long the first four days were.
That's right. We have no knowledge at all as to the length of those days. In fact there is no Biblical evidence that days 1-3 were not about 24 hours long or even shorter. There is no indication in the Bible that evening and morning became different lengths after the sun, moon, and stars were created.
You can believe what you want, for whatever reasons you want. But your claim "The record tells us that one of the primary functions of the sun was to initiate the 24 hr day," is not Biblical. It's your own supposition.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Buzsaw, posted 05-12-2011 9:54 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 05-13-2011 5:05 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 49 by Buzsaw, posted 05-13-2011 9:32 PM NoNukes has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 48 of 231 (615510)
05-13-2011 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by NoNukes
05-13-2011 4:14 PM


Evening and Morning, the classic Jewish Day.
NoNukes writes:
Buzsaw writes:
The record tells us that one of the primary functions of the sun was to initiate the 24 hr day. Clearly implicated is that before day five, we have no knowledge as to how long the first four days were.
That's right. We have no knowledge at all as to the length of those days. In fact there is no Biblical evidence that days 1-3 were not about 24 hours long or even shorter. There is no indication in the Bible that evening and morning became different lengths after the sun, moon, and stars were created.
You can believe what you want, for whatever reasons you want. But your claim "The record tells us that one of the primary functions of the sun was to initiate the 24 hr day," is not Biblical. It's your own supposition.
Well, actually there is evidence that the first days were the same as the latter days; exactly the same phraseology is used between each day.
quote:
5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
13And the evening and the morning were the third day.
19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
23And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
To pretend they are anything other than 24 hour days is to add to the story, the hubris of rewriting the Bible.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 231 (615521)
05-13-2011 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by NoNukes
05-13-2011 4:14 PM


Re: Science?
NoNukes writes:
There is no indication in the Bible that evening and morning became different lengths after the sun, moon, and stars were created.
Say what? No indication whatsoever? None? What then are the implications of verse fourteen?
quote:
4 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years:
The implication is that one of the purposes of the sun being created on day four was to determine the days years and seasons for the planet. No?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by NoNukes, posted 05-13-2011 4:14 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Jon, posted 05-13-2011 9:38 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 54 by NoNukes, posted 05-13-2011 11:52 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 231 (615522)
05-13-2011 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Buzsaw
05-13-2011 9:32 PM


Re: Science?
NoNukes writes:
There is no indication in the Bible that evening and morning became different lengths after the sun, moon, and stars were created.
Say what? No indication whatsoever? None? What then are the implications of verse fourteen?
quote:
4 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years:
The implication is that one of the purposes of the sun being created on day four was to determine the days years and seasons for the planet. No?
For those of us who missed it, would you be kind enough to point out the part of that verse that mentions a change in the length of days?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Buzsaw, posted 05-13-2011 9:32 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Buzsaw, posted 05-13-2011 10:47 PM Jon has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 231 (615525)
05-13-2011 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Jon
05-13-2011 9:38 PM


Re: Science?
Jon writes:
NoNukes writes:
There is no indication in the Bible that evening and morning became different lengths after the sun, moon, and stars were created.
Say what? No indication whatsoever? None? What then are the implications of verse fourteen?
quote:
4 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years:
The implication is that one of the purposes of the sun being created on day four was to determine the days years and seasons for the planet. No?
For those of us who missed it, would you be kind enough to point out the part of that verse that mentions a change in the length of days?
Look up and assimilate the meaning of implication. The verse implicates a determination of days, years and seasons. Pray tell, in context, what do those words imply to you, given that we, on planet earth, observe 24 hr days, etc?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Jon, posted 05-13-2011 9:38 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Jon, posted 05-13-2011 10:52 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 231 (615527)
05-13-2011 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Buzsaw
05-13-2011 10:47 PM


Re: Science?
The verse implicates a determination of days, years and seasons. Pray tell, in context, what do those words imply to you, given that we, on planet earth, observe 24 hr days, etc?
Why not run us through the reasoning behind the implication?
'Cause I still don't see what you're seeing.
Edited by Jon, : formatting

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Buzsaw, posted 05-13-2011 10:47 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 231 (615529)
05-13-2011 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by jar
05-13-2011 5:05 PM


Re: Evening and Morning, the classic Jewish Day.
jar writes:
Buzsaw writes:
The record tells us that one of the primary functions of the sun was to initiate the 24 hr day. Clearly implicated is that before day five, we have no knowledge as to how long the first four days were.
Well, actually there is evidence that the first days were the same as the latter days; exactly the same phraseology is used between each day.
Nonsense! Just as the usage of the term day is determined by context so with the term evening and morning.. The context of days one through four imply an undetermined length of evening and morning and the context of days five and six imply a literal day determined by the lights being created on day four. The context says emphatically that that was the purpose of the created lights on day four.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 05-13-2011 5:05 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by NoNukes, posted 05-14-2011 12:12 AM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied
 Message 56 by Jon, posted 05-14-2011 12:16 AM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 231 (615530)
05-13-2011 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Buzsaw
05-13-2011 9:32 PM


Blinded with Science?
Buzsaw writes:
Say what? No indication whatsoever? None? What then are the implications of verse fourteen?
quote:
4 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years:
The implication is that one of the purposes of the sun being created on day four was to determine the days years and seasons for the planet. No?
Definitely no. I'm quite sure you are wrong. For one thing day in the verse clearly means daylight period of a day/night cycle.
The stars have nothing to do with the length of the seasons or the length of a day. But we can identify the seasons by observing the stars at a particular point in time each day. Or knowing the time of year we can determine the hour by observing the stars or even the position of the sun among the stars.
Genesis 1:14 reflects the truth that the stars are visible at night, are invisible during the day, form constellations and indicate the seasons and the passage of time. Surely you understand that the stars don't actually cause or regulate the passage of time.
The length of a day is determined essentially by the period of rotation of the earth. Darkness and light during a day might depend on the sun, but the overall length of a day on earth does not. We can mark the length of a sidereal day by observing the position of any visible star. We can mark a solar day with the sun.
Finally the length of the seasons is irrelevant for this discussion. There is no mention of the passage of seasons during days 1-7.
Edited by NoNukes, : Delete signs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Buzsaw, posted 05-13-2011 9:32 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Buzsaw, posted 05-14-2011 8:42 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 231 (615531)
05-14-2011 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Buzsaw
05-13-2011 11:11 PM


Re: Evening and Morning, the classic Jewish Day.
Buzsaw writes:
The context of days one through four imply an undetermined length of evening and morning
Undetermined, meaning not even you know what the length was. If you say that undetermined means longer than 24 hours, then you aren't getting that from the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 231 (615532)
05-14-2011 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Buzsaw
05-13-2011 11:11 PM


Re: Evening and Morning, the classic Jewish Day.
The context of days one through four imply an undetermined length of evening and morning and the context of days five and six imply a literal day determined by the lights being created on day four. The context says emphatically that that was the purpose of the created lights on day four.
Instead of evading and avoiding, how about you actually provide some evidence for this claim?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Buzsaw, posted 05-13-2011 11:11 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 231 (615547)
05-14-2011 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by NoNukes
05-13-2011 11:52 PM


Re: Blinded with Science?
NoNukes writes:
The stars have nothing to do with the length of the seasons or the length of a day. But we can identify the seasons by observing the stars at a particular point in time each day. Or knowing the time of year we can determine the hour by observing the stars or even the position of the sun among the stars.
Obviously, all bodies were not meant to fulfill the same function. Obviously, the message of the text is that one of the functions of them was to determine the days, the sun being the one fulfilling that purpose.
One might say that the US government consists of three branches, the executive, the legislative and the judicial, but that does not mean all fulfill the same function. One of the functions of the government is to adjudicate. One of the functions of the heavenly lights is to determine the days etc. Savvy, or do we need to expend more time and bandwidth on these basic aspects of the context?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by NoNukes, posted 05-13-2011 11:52 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 58 of 231 (615554)
05-14-2011 9:30 AM


Moderator Comment
Discussions about Biblical interpretations should be the reserve of the religion threads. If Buzsaw's position is that Genesis describes a cosmos in agreement with science and that there is no conflict then he's done in this thread. Anyone who would like to discuss interpretations of Genesis should propose a new thread over in Proposed New Topics.
As someone noted earlier, this thread needs a creationist participant, but it must be one who interprets Genesis as describing a cosmos where no sun could possibly be billions of years old.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 231 (615602)
05-14-2011 3:28 PM


Topic/Forum Clarification
Is a forum change in order here, in order that creationists may respond in kind to the topic which is as much about creationism as it is about science and Bible study?
The exchanges in the early messages between the admin topic promoter, Adminnemooseus and the topic author seem to indicate so. Most of the content of the thread (abe: including the OP) has been devoted to exchanges between the topic author and other members regarding the Genesis account.
Message 2
...does this not negate the whole "let there be light" narrative. The fact that our sun actually formed from a supernova of a previous sun means we have already had light.
As I see it, if anything, it gives creationists an out to explain how God created light 2 days (wasn't it?) before the creation of the (current) sun. That light could have been from the previous sun version.
Adminnemooseus
"Our own sun contains about 2 percent of these heavier elements [oxygen and carbon] because it is a second- or third- generation star, formed some five thousand million years ago out of a cloud of rotating gas containing the debris of earlier supernovas. Most of the gas in that cloud went to form the sun or got blown away, but a small amount of the heavier elements collected together to form the bodies that now orbit the sun as planets like the earth." Stephen Hawking - Brief History of Time
Sorry I didn't want to just produce a post with a load of links on it, as I find those a little wearing.
Sun - New World Encyclopedia
I realise that to accept this the timeframe would play havoc with YEC anyway.
You may be right about the Genesis narrative. I have read through it and despite reading through, I cannot find mention of light 2 days before the creation of the sun. I suppose, as with all religious texts, the interpretation can be warped to fit whatever evidence is displayed.
Message 5
You may be right about the Genesis narrative. I have read through it and despite reading through, I cannot find mention of light 2 days before the creation of the sun. I suppose, as with all religious texts, the interpretation can be warped to fit whatever evidence is displayed.
Creates light:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light, and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light day, and the darkness he called night. And there was evening, and there was morningthe first day.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Creates sun and moon:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth. And it was so. 16 God made two great lightsthe greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morningthe fourth day.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source
I misguessed - God created light 3 days before creating the sun.
Edited by Buzsaw, : shown in text

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by NoNukes, posted 05-14-2011 4:52 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 231 (615606)
05-14-2011 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Buzsaw
05-14-2011 3:28 PM


Re: Topic/Forum Clarification
Buzsaw writes:
Is a forum change in order here, in order that creationists may respond in kind to the topic which is as much about creationism as it is about science and Bible study?
I think some amount of Biblical interpretation is necessary in this thread, but I agree with the moderator that we're debating aspects that were not relevant to the topic at hand. Quite frankly, I'm not willing to join you in yet another debate about the meaning of "yom". Savvy?
That said, I don't understand the requirement that the creationist side of the debate here be limited to YEC. All that is required is an explanation of why some extra elements exist in the sun so that it appears to be second generation. Apparent age explanations will not cut it, in my opinion, because as I understand stellar evolution, our tiny sun will never fuse hydrogen/helium into the heavy elements currently found in the sun.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Buzsaw, posted 05-14-2011 3:28 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Admin, posted 05-14-2011 5:19 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 62 by Buzsaw, posted 05-14-2011 6:34 PM NoNukes has replied

  
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