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Author Topic:   Quick Questions, Short Answers - No Debate
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 61 of 341 (615755)
05-16-2011 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Coyote
05-16-2011 9:23 AM


Re: Fish Identification
(4) How do you know this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Coyote, posted 05-16-2011 9:23 AM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Coyote, posted 05-16-2011 4:24 PM Dr Adequate has replied
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2126 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 62 of 341 (615768)
05-16-2011 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Dr Adequate
05-16-2011 1:11 PM


Re: Fish Identification
The teeth are wrong.
If you reduce the size of the upper canines you have what appears to be a bear or some such. The rear teeth look like what are called carnasial teeth. These are not found in fish.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-16-2011 1:11 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4165 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 63 of 341 (615771)
05-16-2011 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Coyote
05-16-2011 4:24 PM


Re: Fish Identification
Also the head looks too big/heavy for its body. JMO
If it was real it was no doubt caught near Fukishima

"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1425 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 64 of 341 (615781)
05-16-2011 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Dr Adequate
05-16-2011 1:11 PM


Re: Fish Identification
... and the tail is floating above the shadow with no visible means for it to be in that position with that head, the head is not partially buried in the sand, so the balance is wrong
... and the seagulls have not pecked the eyes out
... and etc etc etc
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-16-2011 1:11 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 10033
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 65 of 341 (615783)
05-16-2011 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by dwise1
05-16-2011 1:16 AM


Re: Propulsion in the vacuum of space; the true story
Consider ion drives, which are also reaction drives. Electric grids accelerate ions to form the exhaust. Where is the pushing there? Acceleration of the vehicle is by conservation of linear momentum, not by pushing against the sides of the chamber.
Reminds me of the old physics question of what to do if you are stuck in the middle of a frictionless surface. The answer is to throw your shoe (or any other piece of clothing). You will accelerate in the opposite direction of the shoe. Ion drives work in the same fashion. They just use a smaller shoe.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 66 of 341 (615790)
05-16-2011 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Percy
05-16-2011 10:24 AM


Re: Propulsion in the vacuum of space
The controlled explosion of fuel in the combustion chamber causes gas to push outward in all directions. In the forward direction it encounters the wall of the combustion chamber, and it pushes against this wall, which being part of the rocket ship imparts a forward force to the whole vehicle. The forces of all the gas that pushes against the sides of the combustion chamber cancels out. There is no force from the gas that exits to the rear because the rear of the combustion chamber is open. The net of all this is a forward force.
No, this isn't right at all.
Space propulsion has nothing to do with gases being pushed off of anything, or pushing on anything. As Dwise says, it's all about conservation of linear momentum.
On an object in space with no external forces acting on it, linear momentum is conserved. That means it has to be the same both before you fire your engine and afterwards. So, if your engine is shooting hot gas particles out that way at a certain velocity, then your space ship has to gain a velocity in the opposite direction, such that the momentum of the gas particles (their mass times their velocity) is canceled out by the momentum of your spaceship.
It's conservation of momentum. It doesn't have anything to do with pushing. If you were to find the center of mass of all of the particles of gas you expended plus your spaceship after you fired your engine, you would find that it was exactly identical to the center of gravity of your spaceship plus its fuel before you fired your engine. Generally we're not concerned about this because the point of space travel is to move spaceships and their occupants to a specific place. We don't care about what happens to the fuel exhaust products once they've been accelerated away from the ship, so the fact that the total center of gravity isn't actually moving is just a bit of trivia.
Rocket engines have a bell-shaped nozzle not because that's necessary to be "pushed" against, but to keep the gases from expanding too quickly. There has to be some pressure in the engine nozzle to ensure combustion of the gases.
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Percy, posted 05-16-2011 10:24 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 79 by cavediver, posted 05-18-2011 3:38 PM crashfrog has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22479
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 67 of 341 (615792)
05-16-2011 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by crashfrog
05-16-2011 7:47 PM


Re: Propulsion in the vacuum of space
crashfrog writes:
No, this isn't right at all.
Yes it is. And so is your explanation.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by crashfrog, posted 05-16-2011 7:47 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4661 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 68 of 341 (615793)
05-16-2011 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by crashfrog
05-16-2011 7:47 PM


Re: Propulsion in the vacuum of space
I think everyone is right here.
It's just that I think people are misunderstanding the law of conservation of linear momentum. This law is just an observation of what happens, and fortunately makes for easier calculations.
You could say that the rocket is pushing against it's own exhaust, and it just so happens that linear momentum is conserved. Even if it would not be conserved and some of it were 'lost' somehow in the transfer, we could still move around in space, although we would have to throw away more 'shoes' then we do now.
Conservation of linear momentum is directly related to Newton's third law, and IMO it is better to explain it as Dr.A did then through conservation of LM simply because such an explanation can lead down a slippery slope of misunderstanding what that law really is.
(I'm feeling I'm not explaining myself well. Hopefully Dr.A will be able to explain this much more briefly and concisely)
AbE I'll add a precision:
Saying ''linear momentum must be conserved'' is very misleading as an answer because it doesn't have to be conserved. We do observe that it is conserved, but this is because when the two exert a force on each other, it is equal and this entails that linear momentum will be conserved.
SO we move through space because one force provoques another, and because they turn out to be equal, linear momentum happens to be conserved.
Edited by slevesque, : No reason given.
Edited by slevesque, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 69 of 341 (615794)
05-16-2011 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Taq
05-16-2011 6:20 PM


Re: Propulsion in the vacuum of space; the true story
Reminds me of the old physics question of what to do if you are stuck in the middle of a frictionless surface.
Phone my high school physics teacher and say: "You gotta see this ... I've found a place where the formulas you taught me would actually apply ... if I was perfectly spherical."

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 70 of 341 (615796)
05-16-2011 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Coyote
05-16-2011 4:24 PM


Re: Fish Identification
The teeth are wrong.
If you reduce the size of the upper canines you have what appears to be a bear or some such. The rear teeth look like what are called carnasial teeth. These are not found in fish.
It was the teeth that aroused my suspicion, but then I don't know very much about fish dentition. But they look too mammalian to me.
There are more pictures of it here about 1/3 the way down.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Coyote, posted 05-16-2011 4:24 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Coyote, posted 05-16-2011 10:32 PM Dr Adequate has not replied
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2126 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 71 of 341 (615802)
05-16-2011 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Dr Adequate
05-16-2011 10:14 PM


Re: Fish Identification
Dr Adequate writes:
The teeth are wrong.
If you reduce the size of the upper canines you have what appears to be a bear or some such. The rear teeth look like what are called carnasial teeth. These are not found in fish.
It was the teeth that aroused my suspicion, but then I don't know very much about fish dentition. But they look too mammalian to me.
There are more pictures of it here about 1/3 the way down.
In those views the rear teeth look a lot more like primate teeth, and not at all like carnasials (such as are found in dogs, for example).
Still not something you would find in a fish.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-16-2011 10:14 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 72 of 341 (615807)
05-17-2011 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Dr Adequate
05-16-2011 10:14 PM


Re: Fish Identification
Hi Doc,
Whilst I agree that it's not natural, I don't think that it's a photoshop job. I think it's a model. A Jenny Haniver of sorts. The back of a fish, stretched over a modified mammal skull.
Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
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xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2587
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 73 of 341 (615808)
05-17-2011 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Coyote
05-16-2011 10:32 PM


Re: Fish Identification
Coyote writes:
Dr Adequate writes:
The teeth are wrong.
If you reduce the size of the upper canines you have what appears to be a bear or some such. The rear teeth look like what are called carnasial teeth. These are not found in fish.
It was the teeth that aroused my suspicion, but then I don't know very much about fish dentition. But they look too mammalian to me.
There are more pictures of it here about 1/3 the way down.
In those views the rear teeth look a lot more like primate teeth, and not at all like carnasials (such as are found in dogs, for example).
Still not something you would find in a fish.
I suspect something they built, rather than photoshopped. Sort of a Piltdown fish.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Coyote, posted 05-16-2011 10:32 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4210 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 74 of 341 (615822)
05-17-2011 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by xongsmith
05-17-2011 2:27 AM


Re: Fish Identification
I suspect something they built, rather than photoshopped. Sort of a Piltdown fish.
Maybe by the same banana brains who came up with the crocaduck.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 75 of 341 (615833)
05-17-2011 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Percy
05-16-2011 8:47 PM


Re: Propulsion in the vacuum of space
Yes it is.
How, for instance, would your model be different than this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Percy, posted 05-16-2011 8:47 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Percy, posted 05-17-2011 1:11 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 78 by dwise1, posted 05-17-2011 9:28 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 85 by fearandloathing, posted 05-19-2011 9:23 AM crashfrog has not replied

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