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Author Topic:   Did the Biblical Exodus ever happen?
Percy
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Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 606 of 657 (618012)
05-31-2011 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 600 by jar
05-31-2011 9:05 PM


Re: Mt Sinai
Using the map in my earlier post and scrolling out and finding the green arrow, then zooming in on the green arrow, then clicking on "ter" for terrain, the green arrow is dead center on what Google Maps labels Jebel al Lawz, and it appears to be at approximately the same location as your #10 Jabal Mazḩafah.
But though it's only the 10th highest mountain in Saudi Arabia, it does appear to be the highest mountain in that region. At 6190 feet or 1897 meters, it's almost 2000 feet less than Fearandloathing's number, but it's still the highest mountain in the region.
Definitely no sign of a blackened top (though if I squinted I could definitely make out the drawing of the calf ).
--Percy

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 613 of 657 (618060)
06-01-2011 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 612 by Buzsaw
05-31-2011 10:44 PM


Re: Mt Sinai
Buzsaw writes:
Why should it need be the highest to be supportive?
I think it's fine that it's the highest in that region, but there's no black top in evidence.
If this is the same mountain that Wyatt identified, how would you test the hypothesis that Wyatt simply looked at a topographical map of the region and picked out the highest one.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 612 by Buzsaw, posted 05-31-2011 10:44 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 619 by Buzsaw, posted 06-01-2011 9:27 AM Percy has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 614 of 657 (618065)
06-01-2011 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 603 by jar
05-31-2011 9:38 PM


Re: Mt Sinai
Let me attempt a map again, this time after updating Chrome and using Google Earth instead:
There, that's better. Ignoring the parts that are obviously shadows, it does appear darker at the top, as do all the other nearby mountains. Looks geological in origin, the geologic layers of mountains at higher elevations being remnants of the same ancient terrain.
I'm not seeing elevations in either Google Maps or Google Earth, can you step me through what you're doing?
--Percy

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 Message 603 by jar, posted 05-31-2011 9:38 PM jar has replied

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 Message 617 by jar, posted 06-01-2011 8:44 AM Percy has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 616 of 657 (618067)
06-01-2011 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 604 by fearandloathing
05-31-2011 9:38 PM


Re: Mt Sinai
fearandloathing writes:
One of features of Google earth is depth/elevation. It is the status bar selection in the view menu. If your status bar is on it will show you elevation + or - above/below sea level, at the bottom of screen.
Chrome might not have a status bar - if it does maybe you or someone can tell me how to turn it on, I couldn't find it in the options.
--Percy

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 618 of 657 (618080)
06-01-2011 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 617 by jar
06-01-2011 8:44 AM


Re: Mt Sinai
Oh, of course! You're using Google Earth itself, while I'm just clicking on Google Earth while in Chrome. Got it, thanks!
--Percy

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 Message 617 by jar, posted 06-01-2011 8:44 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 620 of 657 (618084)
06-01-2011 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 619 by Buzsaw
06-01-2011 9:27 AM


Re: Mt Sinai
You want to maybe edit that post a bit?
--Percy

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 Message 619 by Buzsaw, posted 06-01-2011 9:27 AM Buzsaw has replied

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 626 of 657 (618215)
06-02-2011 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 619 by Buzsaw
06-01-2011 9:27 AM


Re: Mt Sinai
Hi Buz,
I paid you the courtesy of returning to participation as Percy instead of Admin at your request, but I'll have to return to my Admin role if you continue to say things like this:
Buzsaw writes:
I've cited all that I am aware of on this topic. There is as much physical evidence or more cited as there are on many science topics which have been aired here at EvC over the years.
I know that there is a lot at stake here for secularist ideology as it is for that of creationists. We should not be required more than the secularist constituency.
We're in the process of methodically examining your evidence to see if there is any validity to your claim of a number of "corroborated evidences." The first one we examined, a sandbar at Nuweiba, did not withstand scrutiny. Now we're examining your claims about Mount Sinai in Saudi Arabia. Let's take a closer look.
First, here's the Google Earth satellite image again, but this time closer:
The sun is in the northwest, so the shadows lie to the southeast. The actual color of the summit of Jebel al Lawz is a darker tan than the rest of the surrounding area, but if you pan around you'll see that this is true of all the mountains of the region, not just this one. All the mountains in this area are slightly darker at the top than the surrounding area, and many are much darker.
Now things always look much different from a ground perspective, so it is perfectly possible that from the ground that Jebel al Lawz looks like this:
I couldn't find any photos of other mountains in the area - apparently this is the only mountain in the region that people have posted photos of. But since the satellite view shows that all the mountains are darker at the top, some much darker than Jebel al Lawz, they would all look like this and even darker from the ground.
The other problem is that photos can be doctored or photoshopped. Here's a picture of the traditional site of Mount Sinai taken from the air that I found at Google Maps:
It's an exceptionally clear photo. The brownish tan appearance of the peak is unmistakable.
Now here's a photo of the traditional Mount Sinai purportedly taken from Mount Horeb that I found at Panoramio. Taking a picture of Mount Sinai from Mount Horeb is a neat trick since they're just different names for the same mountain:
In this picture the top of Mount Sinai looks burned to a crsip. Of these two pictures, there's got to be something fishy about at least one of them.
And as has been pointed out before, if the vegetation atop a mountain burns it will turn the mountain top black for maybe a season or two. Well before a couple thousand years have gone by the charcoal remains will be washed away. And if there was no vegetation atop the mountain, it was just superheated, rock does not turn black when you heat it.
Perhaps it's time for folks to assess the evidence and go figure for themselves.
You're repeating the same mistake that keeps bogging this thread down - whichever mountain is Mount Sinai, whether its top is dark or light, none of this is evidence for the Exodus. There will always be one mountain in a region that is highest. Finding that mountain and claiming it must be the one is not evidence. And the claims about blackened tops, true or not, are not evidence for the Exodus, either.
So now two of your "corroborating evidences" are unsubstantiated. Let's move on to the next one from your Message 506:
Buzsaw in Message 506 writes:
Duck 3. The alleged crossing was the most shallow part of the sea where they were entrapped.
What is your evidence that the site at Nuweiba is the most shallow part of the Gulf of Aqaba appropriate for a crossing? I'm also curious why you feel God needed a shallow area. If he could do one miracle, why not another. If he could part the sea then why couldn't he also raise the sea bottom. In fact, maybe the sea never actually parted. Maybe what really happened was that God raised up a strip of land crossing the Gulf of Aqaba and of course the sea fell away on both sides, "parted", so to speak. After the Hebrews crossed he returned the strip of land to the bottom of sea, drowning the pursuing Pharaoh and his army.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 619 by Buzsaw, posted 06-01-2011 9:27 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 627 by PaulK, posted 06-02-2011 12:28 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 631 by Buzsaw, posted 06-05-2011 10:46 PM Percy has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 636 of 657 (618795)
06-06-2011 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 631 by Buzsaw
06-05-2011 10:46 PM


Re: Sandbar, etc.
Hi Buz,
You originally claimed that the Jews crossed on a sandbar that was later washed away by a tsunami.
Now you claim that when you said sandbar you actually meant delta? You think a delta extended all the way across the Gulf of Aqaba, that the Jews crossed on the delta, and then most of the delta was later washed away by a tsunami?
Do you have evidence for any of this?
When we say that a claim has not stood up to scrutiny we mean that no evidence could be produced to support the claim. So here's what we have so far:
  • No evidence was produced that there was ever a sandbar or extended delta providing an avenue across the Gulf of Aqaba, nor is there any evidence of a tsunami that would have wiped away all evidence of a sandbar or delta.
  • No evidence was produced linking Jebel al Lawz to the Exodus.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 631 by Buzsaw, posted 06-05-2011 10:46 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 637 by NoNukes, posted 06-06-2011 6:00 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 641 of 657 (618944)
06-07-2011 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 640 by Buzsaw
06-07-2011 7:56 AM


Re: In Regards to Something (like that ..)
Buzsaw writes:
That has been addressed in the thread. Most of their time was at Kadesh Barnea, i.e. Petra which has been occupied by pagan cultures since, erasing any signs of the Jews.
We can add this to your list of claims for which you have no evidence. Since you claim that all signs of Jewish occupation at Petra have been erased, how could you have any evidence that they were ever there?
Buz, evidence isn't something you can think up that can't be disproven. Evidence is a tangible observation of something that actually exists. Things that actually happened leave evidence behind. Your job in this thread is to find some of that evidence and produce it here.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 640 by Buzsaw, posted 06-07-2011 7:56 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 647 of 657 (623331)
07-09-2011 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 644 by cigarshaped
07-09-2011 9:31 AM


Re: In Regards to Something (like that ..)
Are we talking about Ages in Chaos by Immanuel Velikovsky?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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