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Member (Idle past 2956 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Does the Darwinian theory require modification or replacement? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2663 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
Pigliucci cannot use those terms because he is an Atheist dedicated to the BELIEF not scientific fact that evolution cannot be planned. You cite an expert and then reject that expert's findings.You don't get to pick and choose the bits of the paper you like, shadow. The guy said, and I quote: Do these new potential developments represent the possibility of what Kuhn called a paradigm shift, that is a dramatic change in the way we understand evolution? I doubt it. ... The fundamental Darwinian insights that all life on earth share a common descent, and that natural selection is a major mechanism of diversification of biological forms, are still valid and at the core of evolutionary theory. Period. End of sentence. You are not an expert.He is. Those are his conclusions. There's no "But but but he's an atheist!" You gotta problem with the atheist's conclusions, you cite one of those creo papers you go on and on about (and have yet to produce).
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Mazzy  Suspended Member (Idle past 4612 days) Posts: 212 From: Rural NSW, Australia Joined: |
Dr Adequate writes: Hey there. You know that HGT in prokaryotes and epigenetic inheritance should just about have confounded current genomic modelling into a meltdown, I would think. You would think wrong, since obviously HGT is part of "current genomic modeling" --- which is how you know about it. Epigenetics is also part of current biological thinking, which is, again, the reason that you've heard of it.________________________ Quote from me..."Well too bad your evo researchers agree with me and not you. So much so they have had to invent another lot of convoluted models to address HGT in their models. A Fast and Accurate Heuristic forReconstructing Horizontal Gene Transfer As a result, detecting and reconstructing HGT events in groups of organisms has become a major endeavor in biology. The problem of detecting HGT events based on incongruence between a species tree and a gene tree is computationally very hard (NP-hard). Efficient algorithms exist for solving restricted cases of the problem. http://www.phylo.org/pdf_docs/41_(82)Wang_NRW.pdf" ____________________________ As molbiogirl pointed out, a quick search turns up thirty-nine thousand papers on epigenetics and evolution. And yet somehow now creationists hope that if they shout "epigenetics!" loud enough it'll "confound" biologists "into a meltdown"? Like shadow, you seem to be under the curious impression that well-established pillars of current scientific thought are somehow in conflict with current scientific thought. How could this be the case?
I think Mendellian population genetics has been confounded by Lamarkian style inheritance in epigenetic inheritance and Darwin has been outdated as too simplistic. Boy, that was confused. * Darwinian and Lamarkian are two styles of evolution, not inheritance.* Mendelian genetics and population genetics are two different things. * As Darwin believed in the existence of Lamarkian mechanisms, proof that he is right would not make him "outdated" but a century before his time. I think current thinking about Darwinian evolution requires replacement, maybe a Creationist model would be more parsinomous with current knowledge. Evidence for Darwinian evolution and Lamarkian evolution and evolution by HGT cannot be explained, parsimoniously or otherwise, by a dogma the essence of which is to deny evolution. You seem to be making the same strange mistake as shadow. The fact that modern scientists know more about biology than scientists did in the 1930s is not a crisis in modern biology; it's one of its achievements. It is certainly not a sign that we should scrap all the knowledge carefully accumulated over the last couple of centuries and return to the superstitions of the Dark Ages. Listen up... Darwins gradualism has been discarded, epigentics is Lamarkian not Darwinian regardless of any excuses offered to Darwin. I have previously provided research that suggests epigentics plays a bigger role than thought and is a major player in inheritance. I have provided research that speaks to HGT being a confounding factor in phylogenic trees. From the look of what your researchers had to invent to address HGT it looks like a meltdown to me. It is not about whether or not the research is right or not. It is about all this modelling and data derived from genomic models and comparisons is as clear as mud and is not solid irrefuable evidence at all. It is as solid as saying chimp-human variation is 1% then altering to 6% MtDNA SNPs....what they choose to count, don't count, miss and misrepresent is as clear as mud... The theory of evolution is a theory in evolution. Based on that fact the current thinking will replace itself. It has done so many times in the past and will do so again. There is no need to formerly call for changes or modification to evolutionary thought. Darwin is already outdated and too simplistic. History of evolutionary thought - Wikipedia Like any desperately needed item that has no alternative, other than creation, TOE will be patched, fixed and modified for eternity rather than letting it die a graceful death, as I and other creationists would recommend. The only thing that has not changed is the assumption "It all evolved". It is just the how, when, where, and why that is hypothesised without certainty. A theory in continual evolution itself with little if any predictive ability, that is also unfalsifiable, will continue to reinvent itself without any assistance from creationists. It is just the way it is for theories built on the straw foundations of probabilities . Edited by Mazzy, : grammer
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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The bits of that that even meant anything weren't actually true. With the exception of the bit where you admit that scientific progress will continue to take place without any assistance from creationists.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2956 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
Coyote writes:
Example: plants follow the sun. I think to call this "information driven" is to exaggerate what is actually happening to try to drag in the latest great hope of creationists, their unique interpretation of "information." Shapiro is not a creationist and he is who I cited for the information issue.
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2956 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
Nuggin writes:
LL of science is based on one great assumption: "Reality is real" In order to adopt Creationism, you must void that assumption. Doing so completely undoes EVERYTHING that science has ever done. Every experiment, every observation, every discovery, every tool, every measurement, every invention, every deduction. All of it - gone. Why would the fact that evolution is planned by a Creator invalidate date all of the evolutionary scientific findings? If natural selection is planned, if random mutation for fitness is not correct, would the evoution theory be abandoned by science, or would the theory be changed to accept this fact?
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2956 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
Wounded King writes:
Yawwwn, indeed as we have all agreed from the start because the MS is a series of mathematical formulations describing population genetics almost a century old. Could you stop repeating the same thing over and over again? Both Shapiro and Pigliuccci are saying that micro and macro evolution are not the same, ie. macroevolution is not just gradual micro evolution.If correct does that require a change to the MS?
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
If natural selection is planned, if random mutation for fitness is not correct, would the evoution theory be abandoned by science, or would the theory be changed to accept this fact? You should put that question to Mazzy, who apparently thinks that if we know how to improve a theory we should instead abandon it ...
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2956 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
Granny Magda writes:
The idea that humans evolved to a certain point, only for A&E to have souls inserted into them like so much jelly in a doughnut, is not only palpably stupid, it is in contradiction of known facts about human evolution. If there had been such a pairing, they would show up in our genomes. Is there a scientific paper that finds "the soul" would have a genetic marker?
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2956 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
molbiogirl writes:
. You cite an expert and then reject that expert's findings.You don't get to pick and choose the bits of the paper you like, shadow. The guy said, and I quote: Do these new potential developments represent the possibility of what Kuhn called a paradigm shift, that is a dramatic change in the way we understand evolution? I DOUBT IT. ... The fundamental Darwinian insights that all life on earth share a common descent, and that natural selection is a major mechanism of diversification of biological forms, are still valid and at the core of evolutionary theory. Emphasis mine.He doubts it, but cannot absoutley refute a dramatic change in the way we understand evolution. Yet his paper is full of examples that the MS does not deal with. So it's his OPINION that the scientific findings he cites do not change the theory, that is not a fact.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
He doubts it, but cannot absoutley refute a dramatic change in the way we understand evolution. Well of course he can't "absolutely refute" the possibility of your daydreams coming true at some future date. This is no particular reason to think that they actually will, since that is true of any daydream .. owning a pet unicorn, being the first man on Mars, discovering that you have magical powers ... or whatever it is that you wish for. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
I think this runs into a definitional issue of what exactly everyone means by macroevolution.
Obviously when one goes out to a large enough perspective of life 'microevolution', in this case lets say that means random mutation coupled to traditional modern synthesis style population genetics, is insufficient to describe the diversification of life on Earth. We only need to look at endosymbiosis to see this is clearly the case. If that sort of large scale event is what is meant by macroevolution then I'd agree. If what is meant by macroevolution is speciation then I would disagree in as much as speciation certainly can come about through 'microevolution', as I previously defined it, in two isolated populations. However I can also see situations where other mechanisms, not covered by the strict definition of 'microevolution' I am using, could play a role in speciation and subsequent divergence of the lineages after speciation. But this doesn't require a change to the Modern Synthesis (MS) because it isn't what the modern synthesis was formulated to deal with. That is why Pigliucci talks about extension and emphasises the fact that there is no overthrow of MS required. To hark back to the topic title, when you ask if MS should be modified that is quite different from asking whether 'Darwinian Theory', which would certainly encompass a large swathe of Pigliucci's 'extended synthesis', requires modification or replacement. TTFN, WK Edited by Wounded King, : No reason given.
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2514 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
Why would the fact that evolution is planned by a Creator invalidate date all of the evolutionary scientific findings? I explained this earlier, but I'll repeat myself for clarity. If you are assertion is that there is a Creator who made the Universe as is, then was completely hands off - then your assertion does not violate science, however it is also completely worthless. Saying "The Universe was created by a wizard" is no different than saying it was created by a Unicorn or a gnome. Or that there were 50 wizards. Or that it was an accident. Or on purpose. So long as all those assertions take place prior to the Big Bang, and do not extend into actual reality, they mean nothing. If, however, your assertion is that there is a Wizard and that Wizard interacts with reality in ANY WAY - guiding/causing/preventing things from happening - then there are some pretty heavy consequences. Accepting that there is a magical wizard who is unbound by any rules, and is infinitely capable and completely unknowable, means that there is NO PREDICTABLE OUTCOME for ANYTHING EVER. It means that at ANY TIME this wizard can suddenly cause a completely UNPREDICTABLE outcome to occur. It means that NO DATA ever collected, no evidence ever found, no reasoning or logic, no observation, none of it - has any value whatsoever. It means that ALL outcomes (both rational and irrational) and completely valid potential results of ALL actions. You eat a sandwich, therefore Niagra Falls turns to fire.You have exact change at the drive thru, France gets turned into a marshmallow. Accepting that there is a force with limitless power interacting with the universe in completely irrational ways means that NOTHING humanity has ever done could have occurred. It's a wildly ridiculous notion which would require literally abandoning everything as though it never happened.
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2514 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
I think this runs into a definitional issue of what exactly everyone means by macroevolution. The increasing complexity of side programs used within Microsoft Word.
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Taq Member Posts: 10044 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
I have previously provided research that suggests epigentics plays a bigger role than thought and is a major player in inheritance. Why are humans and chimps different? Because of epigenetics or because of a difference in DNA sequence?
I have provided research that speaks to HGT being a confounding factor in phylogenic trees. From the look of what your researchers had to invent to address HGT it looks like a meltdown to me. No researcher I am aware of is stunned by the revelation that transfer of DNA across lineages will confound a phylogenetic tree. Why is this a problem again?
It is as solid as saying chimp-human variation is 1% then altering to 6% MtDNA SNPs....what they choose to count, don't count, miss and misrepresent is as clear as mud... So you agree that it is the DNA differences that are important, not epigenetics?
Like any desperately needed item that has no alternative, other than creation, TOE will be patched, fixed and modified for eternity rather than letting it die a graceful death, as I and other creationists would recommend. So if creationists were in charge they would not allow the theory to change, causing it to always be wrong? Why would they do that?
A theory in continual evolution itself with little if any predictive ability, that is also unfalsifiable, will continue to reinvent itself without any assistance from creationists. Find me a bat with feathers and you will have falsified the theory.
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