War and Morality. Al Qaeda v USA

from a declassified Eisenhower Administration memo:President Eisenhower, in an internal discussion, observed to his staff, and I'm quoting now, "There's a campaign of hatred against us in the Middle East, not by governments, but by the people." The National Security Council discussed that question and said, "Yes, and the reason is, there's a perception in that region that the United States supports status quo governments, which prevent democracy and development and that we do it because of our interests in Middle East oil. Furthermore, it's difficult to counter that perception because it's correct."[59]Bernard Lewis - WikipediaThe NSC concluded that is precisely what we should be doing.

unbroken?1. america intercepted messages from Japan to Russia indicating JAPAN WANTED to SURRENDER.2. Japan had already considered surrendering if america would just allow Japan's Emperor to keep his seat on the throne. america said no, but AFTER bombing Negasaki and Hiroshima, america gave into Japan's request.3. america knew japan would surrender unconditionally when Japan found out that Russia would join the fight. So, america hastened the two bombings BEFORE Japan COULD surrender for an american show of power toward Russia.4. if ANY regards towards human life was any factor at all, america could have detonated the first bomb over water as a deterent/warning.5. The second, even more unnecessary, bomb was completely and utterly criminal. All communication was broken in Japan and america gave no time for the Japanese to assess the first bomb's damage before detonating the second.If one adds up all the civilian deaths from toppled democracies and supported dictators that america has caused around the world in the past century, there isn't a terrorist group anywhere that could compare. america is really number one.

F&L and Anglagard,Of the many items, which particular items on my list do you find dubious? I am thinking at least some of the points were "un-contestable" to moral and intelligent people.I read a particularly good detailed book about the surrender of Japan and "the bomb" many, many years ago. Pity I don't remember the title. But, a lot of info is now on the net if you want more details. See below.In the meantime, I'll try finding the book title.

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While publicly stating their intent to fight on to the bitter end, Japan's leaders at the Supreme Council for the Direction of the War (the "Big Six") were privately making entreaties to the neutral Soviet Union, to mediate peace on terms favorable to the Japanese.

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On August 6, the Americans dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima. Late in the evening of August 8, in accordance with Yalta agreements but in violation of the Soviet—Japanese Neutrality Pact, the Soviet Union declared war on Japan . . .

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Surrender of Japan - WikipediaThere was also a great article that chronicled the exaggerated number of american casualties thought to have been lost IF the americans did invade Japan. Surely there would have been some casualities, but not near as many as people erroneously quote these days to soothe their collective guilt. I doubt I could find THAT article, but I'll try.All very interesting. That so many americans "learn" incorrect history (cough, cough, Palin) seems to be uniquely, . . . um . . . american.Europeans participants, ... do your schools teach your nation's ugly past, or do they whitewash like americans. Can you name an example?Here's another good website read:
http://wgordon.web.wesleyan.edu/papers/hiroshim.htm

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However, American leaders continued to refuse to consider Japan's request that the surrender be conditional on the emperor remaining as the nation's head. Although some hard-core militants in the Japanese government vehemently opposed surrender until the very end, for the most part Japan had been willing for some time to accept the other demands of the Allies, such as complete disarmament, relinquishment of territory seized during the war, limitation of Japanese sovereignty to the four main islands and a few minor islands, temporary occupation of Japan by Allied troops, and justice for designated war criminals. How ironic it is that the Americans decided soon after the end of the war to retain the Japanese emperor as a symbol of continuity to maintain political stability.

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Even if the Hiroshima bombing could be justified, the Nagasaki bombing has absolutely no justification, since America did not even give Japanese leaders enough time to evaluate the effects of the Hiroshima bombing and to reconsider their decision to not surrender.

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http://wgordon.web.wesleyan.edu/papers/hiroshim.htmEdited by dronester, : No reason given.Edited by dronester, : No reason given.

I am pretty sure the exaggerated casualty figures were detailed in an article from this book, The Bomb, by Howard Zinn. Will continue to look for it.

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The Bomb, published to coincide with the 65th anniversary of the dropping of the two atomic bombs on Japan in 1945, collects two of Zinn’s previously published short essays on war and resistance to war.

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Quoting numerous sources and studies, the first essay makes a strong case against the dropping of the atomic bombs, highlighting how subsequently leaked documents show the US knew the Japanese were close to surrendering in August 1945. Citing the historian Barton Bernstein Zinn notes that the oft-repeated figure of one million US deaths from a possible invasion of Japan was simply pulled out of the air.

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http://wgordon.web.wesleyan.edu/papers/hiroshim.htm

Thanks for the examples caffeine. Hmm, . . . "unflattering accounts"? Besides the slavery example, is that one of the best examples you can remember of non-white-washed schooling? Doesn't the British empire in the 1700s and 1800s have a lot of imperial history that was quite barbaric and cruel and filled with atrocities. Since I am not very familiar with British history (1000 years of!!!), I will not argue this point.As a comparable example, american schools whitewash the native-American genocide. Millions of native-Americans were slaughtered. I often wonder if americans had a more empathetic schooling, perhaps more americans would question american foreign policy that is clearly criminal. For example, how many americans know or care that obama is continuing in a long line of presidential actions, violating the War Powers Act (regarding Libya)?Edited by dronester, : less snarky sounding

Thanks Modulous,Your examples were more of what I was looking for.Would you agree the scales/examples below, while simplistic, are somewhat accurate, AND that the conclusions that could be drawn, self-evident?:HISTORY WHITEWASHING/PROPAGANDAusa high, Britian medium, Germany lowTODAY'S ATROCITIESusa high, Britian medium, Germany low

I probably know even less about German history than British. The reason I used them in my example is because the Bush Jr. regime denigrated Germany as an example of "old Europe" because Germany did not join the highly illegal and immoral US coalition to invade Iraq.As you wrote, if not from the pre-great war colonialism, then it seems at least most Germans are correctly informed and mortified from the Hitler years. It's a stain they can't possibly run away from (it doesn't seem necessary there should be actual laws about it). So, the German education system and/or media couldn't white-wash it if it tried. So, if Germans are less propagandized / less misinformed, then it would be reasonable to assume that they are more educated/informed then americans/Brits.This tentative conclusion is the reason why I would hypothesize that Germany is lower in current world wide atrocities than the Brits or the US.

hey Strag,First, see my post to Mod above.I appreciate your school experience of Ghandi, but if that type of factful schooling was large scale in Britian . . . "past"?The more illuminating point would be: What PERCENTAGE of Brits are embarrassed by their colonial past? You and I argued over the whether the BBC is a propaganda machine a year or two ago. It would seem that if the Brits were really "educated"/informed by the BBC and factual schooling, then they couldn't have possibly been hoodwinked by immoral simpleton Bush Jr. into illegally invading Iraq. And it wouldn't have taken the Brits so long to remove war criminal Tony Blair from office. And war criminal Tony Blair would be in prison/executed by now.Do you agree?I don't have the actual percentages, but I would predict the population percentage of usa, Britain, and Germany, who WANTED to invade Iraq, to be high, medium, and low respectively.Would you agree?Edited by dronester, : replaced "and British media" with "factual schooling" for better argumentEdited by dronester, : No reason given.

Ok, your email was full of emotion. Apparently you have some family members with "experience", therefore this topic MAY be ultra personal to you. Let us try to adopt a non-personal attitude and consider just the facts, ok? Well, it is NOT stupid to be wrong. However, it IS stupid to be willfully wrong. (IMO, as Palin IS profoundly mentally retarded, I am doubtful you are "stupider".)Your reply did not specifically address my five items. Try again, for EACH item, state agree or disagree and we'll go on from there:1. america intercepted messages from Japan to Russia indicating JAPAN WANTED to SURRENDER.
2. Japan had already considered surrendering if america would just allow Japan's Emperor to keep his seat on the throne. america said no, but AFTER bombing Negasaki and Hiroshima, america gave into Japan's request.
3. america knew japan would surrender unconditionally when Japan found out that Russia would join the fight. So, america hastened the two bombings BEFORE Japan COULD surrender for an american show of power toward Russia.
4. if ANY regards towards human life was any factor at all, america could have detonated the first bomb over water as a deterent/warning.
5. The second, even more unnecessary, bomb was completely and utterly criminal. All communication was broken in Japan and america gave no time for the Japanese to assess the first bomb's damage before detonating the second.