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Author Topic:   Another example of right wing evil
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1050 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 61 of 247 (622701)
07-06-2011 4:39 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by crashfrog
07-05-2011 1:25 PM


Re: A bit better
Of course you exagerrated. Your description was:
second-class citizen status for Palestinians, including separate sidewalks so that Israelis wouldn't be forced to sully themselves by sharing a sidewalk with one of those people?
What we actually have, are a few strategic streets in Hebron which are off limits to Palestinians, to prevent them from accessing the Jewish colonies.
I'm not trying to excuse the situation. Hebron is a segregated city in which the majority of the population faces severe restrictions on movement in order to protect 500 settlers. I just don't think the hyperbole helps.

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 Message 52 by crashfrog, posted 07-05-2011 1:25 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4254 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 62 of 247 (622729)
07-06-2011 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Taz
07-06-2011 1:21 AM


Taz writes:
They're not strawmen. They're the inevitable consequence of such a law.
lol...wow.
it states none of that in the text. you can argue the slippery slope if you want to, but you have no evidence to support your assertions.
It's like me pointing a gun to your head and say "either lower your pants so I can rape you or I shoot you in the head" and then I turn around and say "I never forced him to take down his pants... he did all that by himself".
actually its nothing like that at all.
Are you really going to play this childish game of semantics with us like the TSA?
Are you really going to play the immature game a being a left wing political hack?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Taz, posted 07-06-2011 1:21 AM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Nuggin, posted 07-06-2011 8:50 AM Artemis Entreri has replied
 Message 64 by Straggler, posted 07-06-2011 8:59 AM Artemis Entreri has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2518 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 63 of 247 (622737)
07-06-2011 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Artemis Entreri
07-06-2011 8:03 AM


The Law and what will happen
it states none of that in the text. you can argue the slippery slope if you want to, but you have no evidence to support your assertions.
While you are technically correct that what Taz says will be an outcome of the bill is not written literally into the bill, it's worth looking at what was actually put in and the likely consequences of that.
Here's what the bill contains, according to the article in the OP:
"Initially, the bill read that no students will "provide any instruction or material that discusses sexual orientation other than heterosexuality.""
Most obvious ramification of this is no homosexuality discussed in sex ed class.
Now, given that homosexuality is a condition from birth, this is stripping a certain percentage of students of information that they actually need to remain healthy. Unlike hetero sex, students who are gay are unlikely to absorb real information through society.
While it is true that there is information aplenty on the internet, the same can be said for literally every class in high school.
It doesn't seem unreasonable to spend a class or even just part of a class, discussing homosexuality or at the very least providing reading materials in such a way that students who may not be out of the closet can access them.
But, there are other more subtle ramifications.
The text says: _any instruction or written material_ that discusses any sexual orientation other than heterosexuality.
Now, that COULD be used by Conservatives (and let's face it, if they CAN use it, they WILL use it) to insist that homosexuality not be discussed in history class.
-no mention of homosexuality among the Greeks
-no mention of gay civil rights
Or social studies/issues class
-no mention of gay marriage
-no mention of gay civil rights
Or potentially (depending on your definition of "instruction") guide councilors
-no support for a kid who is openly gay
-no support for a kid who can't come out for fear of retribution
So, while you are right that these things are not specifically forbidden within the law, Taz is right that the law can have long reaching consequences.
I think the better question is this:
Is there _ANYTHING_ to gain from this law? At all?
Will not mentioning homosexuality somehow magically convert gays back?
What are these people afraid of?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Artemis Entreri, posted 07-06-2011 8:03 AM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Artemis Entreri, posted 07-06-2011 9:53 AM Nuggin has replied
 Message 71 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-06-2011 10:31 AM Nuggin has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 64 of 247 (622739)
07-06-2011 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Artemis Entreri
07-06-2011 8:03 AM


What do you think those who want to implement this law hope to achieve through it's implementation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Artemis Entreri, posted 07-06-2011 8:03 AM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Artemis Entreri, posted 07-06-2011 9:56 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4254 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 65 of 247 (622744)
07-06-2011 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Nuggin
07-06-2011 8:50 AM


Re: The Law and what will happen
nuggin writes:
Most obvious ramification of this is no homosexuality discussed in sex ed class.
When I took sex ed in 7th grade it was a class about how humans reproduce. since we cannot reproduce homosexually, it was not covered in my class. There really is no need to mention homosexuality in a class that teaches student how humans reproduce.
Now, that COULD be used by Conservatives (and let's face it, if they CAN use it, they WILL use it) to insist that homosexuality not be discussed in history class.
you can assume that if you want to I guess.
-no mention of homosexuality among the Greeks
-no mention of gay civil rights
Or social studies/issues class
-no mention of gay marriage
-no mention of gay civil rights
Or potentially (depending on your definition of "instruction") guide councilors
-no support for a kid who is openly gay
-no support for a kid who can't come out for fear of retribution
we are talking about middle and grade school here. How in depth do you think K-6 is in the subjects of History and Social Studies?
I have a bachelor's degree in History and never read about the Gay Greeks in university (and I was educated in the Blue State of Illinois).
Is there _ANYTHING_ to gain from this law? At all?
States Rights and Self determination of the people to rule themselves, without a nanny-state federal government telling them everything they are allowed to do.
Will not mentioning homosexuality somehow magically convert gays back?
that is not the goal here, though to answer your question, no.
What are these people afraid of?
people like you in California, telling them in Tennessee how they have to live, and what they can and cannot do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Nuggin, posted 07-06-2011 8:50 AM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Straggler, posted 07-06-2011 9:59 AM Artemis Entreri has seen this message but not replied
 Message 70 by Nuggin, posted 07-06-2011 10:30 AM Artemis Entreri has replied
 Message 77 by hooah212002, posted 07-06-2011 11:26 AM Artemis Entreri has not replied
 Message 107 by Taz, posted 07-06-2011 8:40 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4254 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 66 of 247 (622747)
07-06-2011 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Straggler
07-06-2011 8:59 AM


oh i don't know, people in TN are sure different. I am just defending their ability of self determination.
I was in TN in April, and I got grief for wearing an Illinois shirt, they told me it reminded them of Obama. I told them when I see a TN shirt it reminds me of Al Gore (they got mad at me for that snide comment).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Straggler, posted 07-06-2011 8:59 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 67 of 247 (622749)
07-06-2011 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Artemis Entreri
07-06-2011 9:53 AM


Re: The Law and what will happen
AT writes:
Nuggin writes:
Is there _ANYTHING_ to gain from this law? At all?
States Rights and Self determination of the people to rule themselves, without a nanny-state federal government telling them everything they are allowed to do.
But they could exert that independence by unilaterally outlawing multi-coloured chequered shirts and in doing so restrict offending anyone other than pimps and rich white men who play golf.
So why pick a law about homosexuality......
What do you think those who want to implement this law hope to achieve through it's implementation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Artemis Entreri, posted 07-06-2011 9:53 AM Artemis Entreri has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-06-2011 10:13 AM Straggler has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 247 (622752)
07-06-2011 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Straggler
07-06-2011 9:59 AM


What do you think those who want to implement this law hope to achieve through it's implementation?
Avoiding teaching young children about gay sex in school.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Straggler, posted 07-06-2011 9:59 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Straggler, posted 07-06-2011 10:21 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 69 of 247 (622753)
07-06-2011 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by New Cat's Eye
07-06-2011 10:13 AM


And gay relationships?
How old are the kids that will be affected by this law?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-06-2011 10:13 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-06-2011 10:34 AM Straggler has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2518 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


(1)
Message 70 of 247 (622755)
07-06-2011 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Artemis Entreri
07-06-2011 9:53 AM


Re: The Law and what will happen
When I took sex ed in 7th grade it was a class about how humans reproduce. since we cannot reproduce homosexually, it was not covered in my class. There really is no need to mention homosexuality in a class that teaches student how humans reproduce.
There are two different times during education that this topic is covered.
In grade school/jr high, there is basic sexual education about sexual reproduction. That is what you are describing.
In high school, there is "health" class, which covers things like sexually transmitted diseases, testicular cancer, etc.
While I agree that there is no need to go over more than the basic nuts and bolts in the grade school class, there is no reason NOT to go over homosexuality in the adult version.
we are talking about middle and grade school here. How in depth do you think K-6 is in the subjects of History and Social Studies?
I have a bachelor's degree in History and never read about the Gay Greeks in university (and I was educated in the Blue State of Illinois).
I agree that much of this wouldn't be an issue in grade school (though councilors should NEVER be prevented from helping kids in need).
Though I am SHOCKED that your history education didn't brush on homosexuality in greek and roman society. While not "core" to the understanding of these two cultures, it would sort of be like discussing American history without mentioning Puritanism.
States Rights and Self determination of the people to rule themselves, without a nanny-state federal government telling them everything they are allowed to do.
The reason we have a nanny-state federal goverment is because southern states insist on acting like children.
As much as you hate minority groups, you don't have the right as a member of the Union (and yes, you ARE members of the Union) to pass laws which discriminate against them.
Banning teachers from discussing homosexuality in health class discriminates against a percentage of the population the same way banning teachers from discussing the contributions of African Americans would discriminate against a group.
Ignoring a minority group does not make them go away.
people like you in California, telling them in Tennessee how they have to live, and what they can and cannot do.
We had a war over this. You lost. Bad.
Or is that someone you also didn't learn in your history class?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Artemis Entreri, posted 07-06-2011 9:53 AM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Artemis Entreri, posted 07-06-2011 11:55 AM Nuggin has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 247 (622756)
07-06-2011 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Nuggin
07-06-2011 8:50 AM


Re: The Law and what will happen
Now, given that homosexuality is a condition from birth, this is stripping a certain percentage of students of information that they actually need to remain healthy.
That's debatable...
Its only for "public elementary or middle school" and its only limits what the school can provide.
So what do you think that certain percentage is? Remember, we're talking about elementary or middle school children who will be receiving information provided by public school from the state of Tennesee about homosexuality that they need to be healthy...
While it is true that there is information aplenty on the internet, the same can be said for literally every class in high school.
This bill is only for elementary and middle school, not high school.
Now, that COULD be used by Conservatives (and let's face it, if they CAN use it, they WILL use it) to insist that homosexuality not be discussed in history class.
-no mention of homosexuality among the Greeks
-no mention of gay civil rights
Or social studies/issues class
-no mention of gay marriage
-no mention of gay civil rights
Or potentially (depending on your definition of "instruction") guide councilors
-no support for a kid who is openly gay
-no support for a kid who can't come out for fear of retribution
So, while you are right that these things are not specifically forbidden within the law,
Elementary and middle school... How much of that stuff is actually covered there?
Taz is right that the law can have long reaching consequences.
He was just looking for a reason to bash the Right. He thought he found something good, but it turns out that its way less worse than he hyperbolized it to be.
Is there _ANYTHING_ to gain from this law? At all?
Will not mentioning homosexuality somehow magically convert gays back?
What are these people afraid of?
If people don't want their young children taught about gay sex then its not a big deal for them to prevent it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Nuggin, posted 07-06-2011 8:50 AM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Nuggin, posted 07-06-2011 10:45 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 247 (622757)
07-06-2011 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Straggler
07-06-2011 10:21 AM


And gay relationships?
*shrugs*
How old are the kids that will be affected by this law?
Less than 15 years old. Its for K - 8th grade. Freshman year of high school being 9th grade and started at around 14 years old.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Straggler, posted 07-06-2011 10:21 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Straggler, posted 07-06-2011 10:48 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2518 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 73 of 247 (622760)
07-06-2011 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by New Cat's Eye
07-06-2011 10:31 AM


Re: The Law and what will happen
That's debatable...
Much the same way that gravity is "debatable" in that people can say "No, I don't want to believe it", but it's not really much of a debate.
Women who produce multiple male children are more likely to produce gay children with each successive male child. This remains true even in cases where the children are raised in different homes as single children (in other words, it has nothing to do with having older brothers in the house).
Basically, the woman's repeated exposure to excess testosterone is having an effect on the fetus in the womb.
That's the science.
Now onto the 1st hand accounts. Ask any given homosexual when he decided it he'd rather be gay and turned his back on heterosexuality.
And then onto logic. If homosexuality is NOT a condition from birth, then people must be getting "talked into it". Meaning, a heterosexual person is presented with an argument for homosexuality that they find so convincing, they turn their back on their natural inclinations to take up a life of rejections and intolerance. Who exactly is presenting them with this argument? If EVERYONE is heterosexual from birth, then there must be a "first gay", a heterosexual who INVENTED homosexuality and talked some other heterosexuals into it.
Can you explain how there could exist a heterosexual who wanted to have gay sex but wasn't homosexual?
So what do you think that certain percentage is? Remember, we're talking about elementary or middle school children
The percentage isn't any different among children as among adults, though the children may be less likely to openly admit it.
Elementary and middle school... How much of that stuff is actually covered there?
Given that I'm not in elementary or middle school, I don't know what's currently taught there. However I do know this:
7th and 8th graders are typically between 12 and 15 years old.
According to the Kinsey institute, a full 25% of kids both male and female loose their virginity by/before age 15.
If these classes AREN'T covering more than the nuts and bolts, they really need to.
If people don't want their young children taught about gay sex then its not a big deal for them to prevent it.
And if people don't want their young children taught about blacks or muslims or cripples, is that not a big deal for them to prevent that too?
Denying children education because the parents are bigots does not result in safer children.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-06-2011 10:31 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-06-2011 11:00 AM Nuggin has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 74 of 247 (622761)
07-06-2011 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by New Cat's Eye
07-06-2011 10:34 AM


Straggler writes:
And gay relationships?
CS writes:
*shrugs*
Doesn't it seem a bit Orwellian to pretend such things don't exist if the issue is raised?
CS writes:
Less than 15 years old. Its for K - 8th grade. Freshman year of high school being 9th grade and started at around 14 years old.
Regarding actual sex education - Anything that goes beyond the plumbing of reproduction is probably not that relevant to all but the upper end of that range.
But if a 14 year old confronting their own sexuality is unable by law to discuss with a teacher or school counselleor surely you would agree that this isn't doing anyone any favours?
Out of interest is there an age of consent in the US and if so what is it and is it the same for gay sex?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-06-2011 10:34 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-06-2011 11:10 AM Straggler has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 247 (622763)
07-06-2011 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Nuggin
07-06-2011 10:45 AM


Re: The Law and what will happen
Can you explain how there could exist a heterosexual who wanted to have gay sex but wasn't homosexual?
No. What I was referring to as debatable, was the part I bolded... That information children need to be healthy is going to be stripped from them.
How many gay children in Tennesee do you think rely on the state elemnetary or middle schools for information about homosexuality that they need to be healthy?
Given that I'm not in elementary or middle school, I don't know what's currently taught there. However I do know this:
7th and 8th graders are typically between 12 and 15 years old.
According to the Kinsey institute, a full 25% of kids both male and female loose their virginity by/before age 15.
If these classes AREN'T covering more than the nuts and bolts, they really need to.
I agree that as we approach 7th and 8th grade, sexual education is more important and limiting education there isn't a very good idea. I suppose that just drawing the line at "middle school" was a result of convenience and not something explicitly determined as a good place for the line to be. Still though, if that's where Tennessee wants to draw it, then that's thier perogative.
And if people don't want their young children taught about blacks or muslims or cripples, is that not a big deal for them to prevent that too?
Gay sex is an action, not a minority categorization.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Nuggin, posted 07-06-2011 10:45 AM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Nuggin, posted 07-06-2011 12:00 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
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