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Author Topic:   Who designed the ID designer(s)?
Straggler
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Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 254 of 396 (617466)
05-29-2011 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by intellen
05-29-2011 9:22 AM


Re: Still a form of faith
How exactly do we test for the effects of an intelligent designer?
We know that natural processes can result in complexity don't we? So how exactly do you decide when to invoke intelligent design?
Is everything designed? Or do you think some things aren't intelligently designed?

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 Message 253 by intellen, posted 05-29-2011 9:22 AM intellen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Bolder-dash, posted 05-29-2011 11:15 AM Straggler has replied
 Message 263 by intellen, posted 05-29-2011 11:31 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 257 of 396 (617474)
05-29-2011 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
08-28-2004 4:38 PM


RAZDeality
Edited by Admin, : Hide content of off-topic post.

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 259 of 396 (617477)
05-29-2011 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Straggler
05-29-2011 10:56 AM


Re: RAZDeality
Admin writes:
Edited by Admin, 05-29-2011 4:00 PM: Hide content of off-topic post
Is questioning the deductive logical basis of this thread which (supposedly) deductively logically proves that ID is faith realllyoff-topic?

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 261 of 396 (617480)
05-29-2011 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by Bolder-dash
05-29-2011 11:15 AM


Re: Still a form of faith
If complexity isn't "the thing" you are citing as necessitating of intelligent design - The what is?

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 267 of 396 (617487)
05-29-2011 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by intellen
05-29-2011 11:31 AM


Re: Still a form of faith
I have never heard of an Intelligent Design arguemnt based on he idea of "reinforcements" before.
Can you tell us exactly what you mean by "reinforcements"....?

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 Message 263 by intellen, posted 05-29-2011 11:31 AM intellen has replied

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 271 of 396 (617491)
05-29-2011 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by intellen
05-29-2011 11:40 AM


Re: Still a form of faith
In what way are these "reinforcements" specifc to Intelligent Design?

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 Message 269 by intellen, posted 05-29-2011 11:40 AM intellen has replied

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 274 of 396 (617495)
05-29-2011 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by intellen
05-29-2011 11:49 AM


Re: Still a form of faith
So how do we recognie these intelligently designed "reinforcements" from those complex things which have just occurred naturally?

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 Message 273 by intellen, posted 05-29-2011 11:49 AM intellen has replied

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 277 of 396 (617524)
05-29-2011 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Bolder-dash
05-29-2011 11:38 AM


"Mere Chance"
You talk about "mere chance". But if complexity is not that which you identify as unable to come about by what you describe as "mere chance" then what is it you identify as requiring Intelligent Design?

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 278 of 396 (617531)
05-29-2011 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by intellen
05-29-2011 1:30 PM


Re: Still a form of faith
Intellen writes:
Straggler writes:
So how do we recognise these intelligently designed "reinforcements" from those complex things which have just occurred naturally?
NATURE cannot make reinforcement, so it is very easy to tell.
I am glad it is easy to tell but I am still confused as to what exactly constitutes "reinforcement". Can you be more explicit about what "reinforcement" is exactly?
Intellen writes:
Complex things in nature is only a mimicry of nature.
So how exactly do you decide when to invoke intelligent design? Is everything designed? Or do you think some things aren't intelligently designed?
Intellen writes:
So, it is very easy too.
Then differentiating between that which has been designed and that which hasn't should be a simple task. I assume you will be able to tell us how to definitively make this distinction?

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 287 of 396 (618786)
06-06-2011 5:04 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by Portillo
06-06-2011 4:57 AM


Port writes:
God designed time itself, so God is outside of time and has no beginning or end.
How do you know this?

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 Message 286 by Portillo, posted 06-06-2011 4:57 AM Portillo has replied

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 296 of 396 (618928)
06-07-2011 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 295 by Portillo
06-07-2011 3:30 AM


Faith Or Evidence?
Portillo writes:
I believe that God is the designer because I believe that God is the designer, architect, supreme being and source of the universe.
I don't doubt that you do believe this. But why do you think your particular beliefs have any bearing on reality?
Portillo writes:
"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM." This reveals God as the being who is absolutely self-existent, and who in Himself possesses essential life and permanent existence.
And other books will say other things which suggest that other gods are the undesigned designers of the universe.
I suppose with regard to this thread the question is this - Do you consider your belief that the Christian God is the designer to be a faith based position or an evidence based position?

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 Message 295 by Portillo, posted 06-07-2011 3:30 AM Portillo has replied

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 298 of 396 (618939)
06-07-2011 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by Portillo
06-07-2011 7:43 AM


Re: Faith Or Evidence?
It is not uncommon for those of faith to convince themselves that their faith based conclusions are also evidenced.
Can you tell us what evidence you use to derive your conclusion that the Christian God is the undesigned designer?

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 308 of 396 (621217)
06-24-2011 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by RAZD
06-23-2011 12:11 AM


Re: Still a form of faith & restatement of topic
RAZ writes:
Belief in alien visitations without objective empirical evidence is faith.
Belief in sasquatch\yeti without objective empirical evidence is faith.
Belief in Intelligent Design without objective empirical evidence is faith.
It is not science.
The fact that something is not science does not mean that it is faith. This is a false dichotomy.
You cannot prove that a form of belief is adopted on the basis of faith rather than poor reasoning, inability to discern good evidence from bad or any number of other possible reasons for belief.
RAZ writes:
These categories all end up with belief in an Intelligent Designer being a matter of faith.
Your silly idea that you can logically prove that something is a form of faith is non-sensical to the point of stupidity.

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 349 of 396 (622843)
07-06-2011 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by New Cat's Eye
07-06-2011 2:57 PM


Re: Still a form of faith & restatement of topic
CS writes:
I still think its possible for someone to come to a conclusion of ID without having to rely on faith to get there.
Poor reasoning, inability to discern good evidence from bad, lack of understanding, an indifferent attitude that is open to change if exposed to the facts that one is unaware of.....
Any belief can be based on all manner of things that are not faith.
If RAZ is simply saying that there is no objective empirical evidence in favour of ID then fair enough. But he could have done that without the whole "Who designed the designer" angle. And the idea that he has provided a deductive logical proof that belief in ID must be based on faith is just silly.
People have believed in all manner of things - From a luminiferous ether to the genuineness of piltdown man - Is RAZ saying that everything is believed on faith until scientifically confirmed as correct?

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 Message 348 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-06-2011 2:57 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

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 Message 350 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-07-2011 11:40 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 353 of 396 (623171)
07-08-2011 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by New Cat's Eye
07-07-2011 11:40 AM


Re: Still a form of faith & restatement of topic
If an absence of objective empirical evidence isn't what RAZ is using to distinguish faith based belief from non-faith based belief what is?

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 Message 350 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-07-2011 11:40 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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