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Author Topic:   Why are there no human apes alive today?
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 12782
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 751 of 1075 (623294)
07-09-2011 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 747 by Mazzy
07-09-2011 5:08 AM


Lluc
Erectus has heavy brows, pronaganathism, long arms, large bones, large rounded rib cage. Why I'd say he probably looks just like Lluc.

Since Mazzy keeps going on about "Lluc" (Anoiapithecus brevirostris), here's a picture.

There's his "FLAT FACED APE", which, you will note, is not flat-faced.

And here's Turkana Boy again ...

... the same Turkana Boy who was "well within the variation of human skulls today" a week last Thursday.

And today Mazzy "would say that he looks just like Lluc".

Well well.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 747 by Mazzy, posted 07-09-2011 5:08 AM Mazzy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 760 by Mazzy, posted 07-09-2011 2:25 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 12782
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 752 of 1075 (623295)
07-09-2011 7:08 AM
Reply to: Message 750 by Mazzy
07-09-2011 6:26 AM


What do you mean have in common. Because we were alive. A chimp has a similar skeleton now to humans and looks absolutely nothing like a human.

"Similar" and "nothing like" are antonyms.

I can contemplate the hereafter, and have superior reasoning and perceptual ability, and best of all I do not have long hair growing all over my body.

I believe you about the hereafter and the hair.

Oh no that is not what I said at all. What I have said previously is that the use and control of fire is a complex task. There were no matches. magnifying glass or lighters for erectus. He would have had to have worked out how to use flintstone or stick rubbing, a complex task. I alledge, with its small brain even if I believed it was on its way to humanity, erectus was not smart enough to use and control fire.

What your researchers have found are either fires started naturally, or with hearths, evidence that someone smarter was about at the same time. eg human beings.

You have, of course, no evidence for these assertions.

The arising of a single cell is in the rubbish bin now. Do not forget with the advent of HGT you now have multiple primitive cells arising. These poofed into existence individually and yet were so genetically similar that they were able to horizonatlly transfer genes. Life on this planet will only ever have the same basic genetic blueprint. It does not show we all came from the same cell. In fact your research now shows we didn't. LUCA is dead and so are your genomic comparisons as HGT has confounded your models into a complexity meltdown.

This illiterate nonsense is off-topic.

As for walking upright there is not better term than to say " What Rubbish".

If you can really do no better than to produce a bizarre non sequitur, I think you ought to give up now.

That is flavour of the month. Not too long ago bipedalism was theorised to be connected to brain increase. That has been proven wrong.

What are you talking about?

Neanderthal was also once pictured to be a stooped ape based on its fossils, but now stand perfectly upright.

Actually, the stooped specimen (La Chapelle-aux-Saints 1) is still stooped, since your gibberish has failed to cure his arthritis.

Your reconstructions are biased.

You have not pointed out the imaginary bias.

Besides chimps can walk upright regardless of being knuckle walkers, it has squat to do with becoming human.

And we can hop on one leg. So what? We have anatomical adaptations for being bipedal which chimps lack.

I have given proof that there was flat faced apes around 12mya. Flatter facial features are NOT a sign of becoming human. Erectus has heavy brows, pronaganathism, long arms, large bones, large rounded rib cage. Why I'd say he probably looks just like Lluc.

And you are laughably wrong, as we have seen.

DNA..I have provided evidence from the Chimpanzee genome project that chimps and humans differ by at least 30%.

As you would know if you were literate, that is a measure of alignment, and does not contradict other figures for similarity.

The simply and obvious thing is that some creature on this earth had to be more similar to us than the rest. It happens to be chimps.

But why do chimpanzees have to be closer to us than they are to anything else?

"Chimpanzees seem almost human, and scientists have maintained for decades that chimps are, in fact, 98.5 percent genetically identical to humans.

But the results of a new study call that figure into question, with a finding that there are actually large chunks of the human and chimp genomes that are vastly different. "
http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2003/03/57892#

The article to which you refer (in Wired, for heaven's sake) states: "The study didn't generate a new number expressing how similar or different chimpanzee DNA is from human DNA."

ERV's show nothing more than some species were in the same place and were exposed to some bug.

"Within the published human genome sequence, there are over 98,000 human endogenous retroviruses (HERVs), but all are defective, containing nonsense mutations or major deletions. No replication-competent HERVs have been identified to date (26, 31, 33, 35), with only one (K113) with open reading frames for all genes (35), and thus their activity and infectivity is thought to have decreased substantially from levels occurring during earlier periods of primate evolution (1, 23, 34). "
http://jvi.asm.org/cgi/content/full/79/19/12507

Humans can catch Hendra virus but are not closely related to bats or horses. This is just straw grabbing nonsense, made from convoluted mathematical models that mean nothing in the end. You have nonsense mutations and major deletions and it is all guesswork, assumpions and down hill from there.

I suggest that you read up on ERVs until you understand the point; or until you die of old age, whichever comes sooner.

The genetic comparisons your researchers use are very simplistic. They take a handfull of enzymes, stain them with dyes and use this nonsense as the basis to describe and compare an incredibly complex genomic system.

But I have a dream that one day we will be able to sequence entire genomes ...

... oh, wait.

I have refuted morphology, DNA comparison and ERV's as being any more than theoretical assumptions based on further assumptions and convoluted models and in no way appear to detract from my assertion that there were never any chimp/human intermediates.

A more accurate description of what you have done would be "screamed ignorant and illiterate nonsense".

Creationists may not have all the answers either.

Hey, you said something true!

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 750 by Mazzy, posted 07-09-2011 6:26 AM Mazzy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 778 by Mazzy, posted 07-10-2011 3:11 AM Dr Adequate has responded

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Message 753 of 1075 (623296)
07-09-2011 7:24 AM


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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 755 days)
Posts: 2962
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 754 of 1075 (623320)
07-09-2011 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 746 by Mazzy
07-09-2011 4:23 AM


Australians
Nuggin....After you clarify what on earth you are talking about.

Once again I see you dilly with asides. This is great as it demonstrates you are unable to mount any refute..again.

It's not dillying with asides. It's handling your errors in chronological order.

It's taking WEEKS to get you to deal with this one, in that time you've made a good 100+ additional errors.

The more of them people refute, the more you just say "Well, I believe otherwise" and then post something else.

So, I'm nailing you down to ONE specific error and getting you to confront it.

When discussing human migration, you claimed that no humans had reached Australia prior to ~200 years ago.

So, either A) You are in error about Australian history
or B) Aboriginese are not human

And since you've never admitted to being in error about ANYTHING so far, I'm waiting for you to back up B

12th time I've asked. Let's see if you can handle this ONE thing before we move onto your next error


This message is a reply to:
 Message 746 by Mazzy, posted 07-09-2011 4:23 AM Mazzy has not yet responded

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 755 days)
Posts: 2962
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 755 of 1075 (623321)
07-09-2011 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 747 by Mazzy
07-09-2011 5:08 AM


Re: Some guys say...
As I stated previously your continual ignorance of my argument and inability to refute my assertions is becoming more and more obvious.

Maz, your tactic of Gish Gallop is dishonest. We've called you out on it, but rather than stop you just get worse and worse.

So, AS I HAVE STATED BEFORE, since YOU ARE UNABLE to pick ONE ISSUE and stick with it, then I am going to do it for you.

I will refute ALL of your assertions in ridiculous detail.
ONE AT A TIME.

And I won't move onto #2 until you ADMIT YOU WERE WRONG about #1.

So, back to it.

You claim that aborigenes are NOT HUMAN. Back it up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 747 by Mazzy, posted 07-09-2011 5:08 AM Mazzy has not yet responded

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 755 days)
Posts: 2962
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 756 of 1075 (623322)
07-09-2011 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 748 by Portillo
07-09-2011 5:27 AM


Do you believe that Buddha, Muhammad and Confucius existed?

Open a new thread


This message is a reply to:
 Message 748 by Portillo, posted 07-09-2011 5:27 AM Portillo has not yet responded

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 755 days)
Posts: 2962
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 757 of 1075 (623323)
07-09-2011 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 750 by Mazzy
07-09-2011 6:26 AM


Re:
How dare you say I cannot grasp the defenition of ape.

I dare because you've demonstrated absolutely no understanding of the definition.

You keep using the term "ape" as if it excluded humans.
You keep insisting that there are no "human apes alive today".

CLEARLY the 20+ posts in which people have pointed out that humans ARE apes hasn't sunk in.

So, either you are deliberately being dishonest (read: Creationist)
OR... you CANNOT GRASP the definition.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 750 by Mazzy, posted 07-09-2011 6:26 AM Mazzy has not yet responded

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 755 days)
Posts: 2962
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 758 of 1075 (623324)
07-09-2011 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 750 by Mazzy
07-09-2011 6:26 AM


ERVS
ERV's show nothing more than some species were in the same place and were exposed to some bug.

This will be the thing I beat to death once you are done resolving the first issue about the Australians.

Just a fair warning. Better go read up on it because it's complicated and I don't think you have the basics to even grasp the issue, let alone debate it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 750 by Mazzy, posted 07-09-2011 6:26 AM Mazzy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 762 by Mazzy, posted 07-09-2011 3:01 PM Nuggin has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 4539
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 759 of 1075 (623332)
07-09-2011 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 748 by Portillo
07-09-2011 5:27 AM


Do you believe that Buddha, Muhammad and Confucius existed?

Buddha is a probable no. I consider his historicity to be similar to that of Jesus. Compare Buddha to Alexander the Great who is of roughly the same time period. We have tons of historical evidence and artifacts for Alexander, nothing for Buddha. Also, Buddah is not the fat guy most Americans think of as Buddha. That is Budai

Muhammad is also questionable for the same reasons I question the historicity of Jesus. There are no contemporary accounts. There seems to be a bloodline from Muhammad but this is attributed to tradition not actual historical sources.

Confucius is most probably not a historical character. There is actually some recent scholarship that suggests Confucius was a creation of Jesuit missionaries.
Confucius and the Scholars

Unless I see actual historical evidence I am skeptical of the historical existence of these figures. I am also skeptical of the historical existence of Jesus.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 748 by Portillo, posted 07-09-2011 5:27 AM Portillo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 775 by Portillo, posted 07-09-2011 9:04 PM Theodoric has responded

  
Mazzy 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1034 days)
Posts: 212
From: Rural NSW, Australia
Joined: 06-09-2011


Message 760 of 1075 (623337)
07-09-2011 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 751 by Dr Adequate
07-09-2011 6:41 AM


Re: Lluc
Dr Adequate, that is not the picture of LLuc at all.

Since Mazzy keeps going on about "Lluc" (Anoiapithecus brevirostris), here's a picture.

So you are happy to accept a creature that is reconstructed from a few bones when it fits with your paradigm. But you don't when it doesn't suit you. Isn't that the sort of thing you lot say creationists do, pick and choose and then ignore the rest?

LLuc is a flat faced ape. It is your evolutionary researchers that describe it as such. They also specifically state that it is not in the homo line and yet has morphology only compared to homo.

"ScienceDaily (June 2, 2009) Researchers have discovered a fossilized face and jaw from a previously unknown hominoid primate genus in Spain dating to the Middle Miocene era, roughly 12 million years ago. Nicknamed "Lluc," the male bears a strikingly "modern" facial appearance with a flat face, rather than a protruding one. The finding sheds important new light on the evolutionary development of hominids, including orangutans, chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas and humans."
http://www.sciencedaily.com/...ases/2009/06/090602083729.htm

If you do not like what your researchers are saying then you had best go argue with them and make your case. For now we have a flat faced ape dated to 12mya...like it or not.....it could be the ancestor of any other ape with similar features.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 751 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-09-2011 6:41 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 761 by Theodoric, posted 07-09-2011 2:51 PM Mazzy has responded
 Message 771 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-09-2011 8:24 PM Mazzy has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 4539
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 761 of 1075 (623340)
07-09-2011 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 760 by Mazzy
07-09-2011 2:25 PM


Re: Lluc
Dr Adequate, that is not the picture of LLuc at all.

Please tell us what it is a picture of.

LLuc is a flat faced ape. It is your evolutionary researchers that describe it as such.

Again you do realize that Humans are apes, don't you?

They also specifically state that it is not in the homo line and yet has morphology only compared to homo.

Please show where they say this. Are you lying?

This is what the article says.

quote:
The extraordinary resemblance does not indicate that Anoiapithecus has any relationship with Homo, the researchers note. However, the similarity might be a case of evolutionary convergence, where two species evolving separately share common features.

Please show where any of this supports anything you are trying to spout. Why do you think anyone feels there is a need for this to be a direct ancestor of humans? You do realize a flat face makes it more resembling humans than any other great ape don't you?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 760 by Mazzy, posted 07-09-2011 2:25 PM Mazzy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 763 by Mazzy, posted 07-09-2011 3:20 PM Theodoric has responded

  
Mazzy 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1034 days)
Posts: 212
From: Rural NSW, Australia
Joined: 06-09-2011


Message 762 of 1075 (623344)
07-09-2011 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 758 by Nuggin
07-09-2011 12:17 PM


Re: ERVS
I have no idea what you are going on about re Australians. Australian Aborigines are humans that have adapted to their environment. When Australia was discovered they were no hairy half human apes here either but human beings just like you and me. Are you trying to suggest Australian Aborigines are anything but fully human? You seem to go on about them alot.

Re ERV's
Some people have claimed that there are viruses inserted into the genomes of all apes, including humans, that got into their genome long before any of the apes of today or humans existed. Probably so far back that it was when they were all still more like monkeys, the so called "Old World" monkeys. Since all these animals have the same viral infections, it has been claimed by some evolutionists that they must have a common ancestor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjXP3vEA3Rk

There is no evidence anywhere that one species comes out of another species anyways. Viruses can be uncannily acquired independently and arrive in the same places of the genome depending on the virus. Certain viruses prefer certain places in the genome and certain chromosomes. An example would be HIV, it infects humans and chimps in the exact same location of the chromosome. Also the Adenovirus does the same. Having the same retrovirus in different species shows nothing about common ancestory, all it proves is that different species share similar homogeny.

However, in 2007 Retroviruses were found in Chimpanzees, Old world monkeys, and African apes that are not found in Humans or Asian Apes. One of them is called PTERV1 I believe.

According to the phylogenetic tree Chimps are closer to Humans than to Gorillas, they claim to have overvaluing evidence supporting this claim, if this claim is true, and if evolutionists interpreted ERVs correctly, then Gorillas and Chimps can not share an ERV, unless, this ERV is also present in humans, therefore finding an ERV in chimps and gorillas, but not in humans should falsify evolution, or at least the argument on ERVs, however there is at least 1 ERV from the family K that is present in chimps and gorillas, but not in humans, these ERVs are in orthologous position, therefore this fact should falsify evolution.

Evolutionists claim that this does not falsify evolution because maybe a retrovirus infected the common ancestor of gorillas, humans and chimps, but humans lost the ERV recently, however this makes the argument on ERVs impossible to falsify, besides evolutionists fail to explain how many of this irregularities are allowed, without contradicting evolution, they fail to provide a process in which an ERV can disappear, they fail to provide a rate in which ERVs disappear, besides if one human somehow lost an ERV, only some of the descendents of this human should lack this ERV, but not all humans.

Here is support from your own evo researchers that there are ERV's that humans and other primates do not share.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/...ases/2005/03/050328174826.htm

and this one also.

http://holysmoke.org/01-herv-k-provirus.pdf

So if you want to get around believing ERV's prove you are an ape I respect your wish to do so. You should not infer that I cannot back my claim because indeed I can and from your own body of research.

ERVs are just another unfalsifiable claim, where you invent more convoluted nonsense and hypthesis to explain what isn't there that should be eg PTERV1, and is there and shouldn't be eg genetic homoplasy.

However to continue to suggest by inuendo or otherwise that creationists have no basis to question your evolutionary assertions and hypothesis around ERV's is comparable to asking a creationists to shut down the intelligence, common sense and reasoning ability they were given.

ERV's do not demonstrate common descent. Now you toddle off and find some research that refutes the stuff I posted that states in black and white that some ERV's in apes are not found in humans or convince me that the excuses these researchers invent to explain it have any veracity outside of dream time.

Edited by Mazzy, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 758 by Nuggin, posted 07-09-2011 12:17 PM Nuggin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 765 by Theodoric, posted 07-09-2011 3:37 PM Mazzy has not yet responded
 Message 774 by Nuggin, posted 07-09-2011 9:01 PM Mazzy has not yet responded

  
Mazzy 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1034 days)
Posts: 212
From: Rural NSW, Australia
Joined: 06-09-2011


Message 763 of 1075 (623346)
07-09-2011 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 761 by Theodoric
07-09-2011 2:51 PM


Re: Lluc
Theodoric.. I have said that if you want to see yourself as an ape and you are satisfied with the convoluted falable theories to support it, I will not stand in your way.

I am not an ape just because your silly researchers have classed humans as such.

The Genus Homo is unlike any other taxon at Genus rank in that it is the only genus where one of the species described within are so obviously different from the others.

Evolutionary convergence, is just another myth to explain what is there that shouldn't be. Genetic and morphological homoplasy is another...evos have lots of excuses invented under the guise of theory to explain the unexpected and unpredicted eg chimp/human Y chromosome='accelerated' evolution. You must continue to invent these excuses to keep TOE alive. I understand.

I understand and have empathy for you and admire the depths of your and others unwavering faith in TOE in the face of contradictions, the death of much of your evidence eg LUCA, Ardi,etc and continual changes eg punctuated equilibrium the luck of genetic drfit, epigentic Mendellian style inheritance, HGT in Prokaryotes etc. You are very faithful to your cause.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 761 by Theodoric, posted 07-09-2011 2:51 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 764 by Theodoric, posted 07-09-2011 3:33 PM Mazzy has not yet responded
 Message 766 by bluegenes, posted 07-09-2011 4:23 PM Mazzy has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 4539
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 764 of 1075 (623347)
07-09-2011 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 763 by Mazzy
07-09-2011 3:20 PM


Re: Lluc
How about addressing my post? I have clearly showed that you misrepresented the article you linked to. I guess maybe I was correct and you were lying about what the article said.

eg punctuated equilibrium the luck of genetic drfit, epigentic Mendellian style inheritance, HGT in Prokaryotes etc.

Do you have any idea what any of this is?

The gish gallop continues.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 763 by Mazzy, posted 07-09-2011 3:20 PM Mazzy has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 4539
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 765 of 1075 (623350)
07-09-2011 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 762 by Mazzy
07-09-2011 3:01 PM


Australia
I have no idea what you are going on about re Australians. Australian Aborigines are humans that have adapted to their environment. When Australia was discovered they were no hairy half human apes here either but human beings just like you and me. Are you trying to suggest Australian Aborigines are anything but fully human? You seem to go on about them alot.

You are the one that suggested aborigines were not human.

Mazzy writes:

There are plenty of areas on the planet only gotton to over the last 200 years eg Australia and there are no ape people here or in Africa or anywhere else.


Message 298


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 762 by Mazzy, posted 07-09-2011 3:01 PM Mazzy has not yet responded

  
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