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Author Topic:   Did the Biblical Exodus ever happen?
Theodoric
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Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 646 of 657 (623330)
07-09-2011 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 644 by cigarshaped
07-09-2011 9:31 AM


Re: In Regards to Something (like that ..)
In 1970 I devoured a book which explored the Exodus as part of a GLOBAL catastrophe. In it documents and documented legends, etc point to nations all around the world suffering similar events to the Egyptian plagues, followed by periods of intense darkness, famine and re-location.

What is the title of this book? Could you give us the name of the brilliant scholar that wrote this book so we can look at the sources used. I have a feeling that the only evidence used is the version of the bible that this particular person places his/her faith in.

And that's before I get onto pole reversal, prolonged darkness, ambrosia (manna = 'honey') and rivers of honey.

Do you have evidence for any of this?

Edited by Theodoric, : Spelling


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Percy
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Posts: 15630
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 647 of 657 (623331)
07-09-2011 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 644 by cigarshaped
07-09-2011 9:31 AM


Re: In Regards to Something (like that ..)
Are we talking about Ages in Chaos by Immanuel Velikovsky?

--Percy


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cigarshaped
Junior Member (Idle past 2056 days)
Posts: 5
From: Bracknell, UK
Joined: 07-08-2011


Message 648 of 657 (623333)
07-09-2011 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 645 by jar
07-09-2011 11:34 AM


Re: In Regards to Something (like that ..)
If a cosmic catastrophe struck the world, major disruption and death would follow. Certainly if the "earth turned over like a potter's wheel - upside down" (Papyrus Ipuwer ) or "South to North, the Earth turns over" Papyrus Harris, we would expect some visible signs in the atmosphere. Virtually total blackout.

Hence Ps 82:5 "They walk about in darkness", Jer 2:6 "..through the barren wilderness.. a land of drought and darkness,.", Ps 44:19 ".. deep darkness", Is 9:2 "The people walking in darkness..", Ps107:14 He brought them out of darkness and the deepest gloom..", Job 24:17 "For all of them deep darkness is their morning;..". Ermitage papyrus "None can live when the sun is veiled by clouds."

Moses seems to have avoided mentioning the darkness but everyone seems to have suffered it! Aztecs - 'no sun for many years, then reappeared in the East'. The Mayans have similar legends. So a global Exodus period scenario is my suggestion.


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cigarshaped
Junior Member (Idle past 2056 days)
Posts: 5
From: Bracknell, UK
Joined: 07-08-2011


Message 649 of 657 (623334)
07-09-2011 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 647 by Percy
07-09-2011 1:18 PM


Re: In Regards to Something (like that ..)
Percy it is 'Worlds in Collision' actually. A brilliant collection of quotations and a rather extreme theory that annoyed academia. BBC Horizon in 1972 did a good resume.
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jar
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Posts: 28838
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 650 of 657 (623336)
07-09-2011 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 648 by cigarshaped
07-09-2011 1:51 PM


Re: In Regards to Something (like that ..)
Except there is absolutely no evidence anything like that ever happened.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Theodoric
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Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 651 of 657 (623338)
07-09-2011 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 649 by cigarshaped
07-09-2011 1:54 PM


Some of Velikovsky's specific postulated catastrophes included:
Some of Velikovsky's specific postulated catastrophes included:

A tentative suggestion that Earth had once been a satellite of a "proto-Saturn" body, before its current solar orbit.
That the Deluge (Noah's Flood) had been caused by proto-Saturn's entering a nova state, and ejecting much of its mass into space.
A suggestion that the planet Mercury was involved in the Tower of Babel catastrophe.
Jupiter had been the culprit for the catastrophe that saw the destruction of the "Cities of the Plain" (Sodom and Gomorrah)
Periodic close contacts with a cometary Venus (which had been ejected from Jupiter) had caused the Exodus events (c.1500 BCE) and Joshua's subsequent "sun standing still" (Joshua 10:12 & 13) incident.
Periodic close contacts with Mars had caused havoc in the 8th and 7th centuries BCE.

Source

Since he had no evidence for any of this, do you?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Iblis
Member (Idle past 1308 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 652 of 657 (623339)
07-09-2011 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 649 by cigarshaped
07-09-2011 1:54 PM


catsasstrophe
You do know that Velikovsky's "work" is inflammatory pseudo-science though, right?

The fundamental criticism against this book from the astronomy community was that its celestial mechanics were irreconcilable with Newtonian celestial mechanics, requiring planetary orbits which could not be made to conform to the laws of conservation of energy and conservation of angular momentum (Bauer 1984:70). Velikovsky conceded that the behavior of the planets in his theories is not consistent with Newton's laws of motion and universal gravitation. He proposed that electromagnetic forces could be the cause of the movement of the planets, although such forces between astronomical bodies are essentially zero (Friedlander 1995:11-12).

Velikovsky tried to protect himself from criticism of his celestial mechanics by removing the original Appendix on the subject from Worlds in Collision, hoping that the merit of his ideas would be evaluated on the basis of his comparative mythology and use of literary sources alone. However this strategy did not protect him: the appendix was an expanded version of the Cosmos Without Gravitation monograph, which he had already distributed to Shapley and others in the late 1940sand they had regarded the physics within it as egregious.


http://en.wikipedia.org/..._Collision#Contemporary_reactions

See, what happened was, Sigmund Freud had pissed off the orthodox religious community by (among many things) suggesting that the character of Moses was based on the Egyptian father of monotheism, Akhenaton. Velikovsky began playing literary games with history to refute the Head Shrink, in a blatantly satirical manner, by "proving" that Moses happened nowhere near the scholarly accepted date and that furthermore, Akhenaten was actually the basis for the character of Oedipus. Get it?

Brilliant, sure. Truthful? Serious? Hardly. Science? Not even close.

From 1924 to 1939 Velikovsky lived in what was then the British Mandate of Palestine, practising medicine (both general practice and psychiatry), and also psychoanalysis (he had studied under Sigmund Freud's pupil, Wilhelm Stekel in Vienna). During this time he had a dozen or so papers published in medical and psychoanalytic journals, including, in 1930, the first paper to suggest that epilepsy is characterised by abnormal encephalograms,[13] now part of the routine diagnostic procedure, and papers in Freud's Imago, including a precocious analysis of Freud's own dreams.[14]

http://en.wikipedia.org/...vsky.27s_career_as_a_psychiatrist
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cigarshaped
Junior Member (Idle past 2056 days)
Posts: 5
From: Bracknell, UK
Joined: 07-08-2011


Message 653 of 657 (623375)
07-09-2011 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 652 by Iblis
07-09-2011 2:35 PM


Re: catastrophe
Actually Velikovsky may have bitten off too big a chunk in one go. His work deserves more honest assessment. Now there is a growing movement of dissident scientists and researchers continuing his themes. The evidence grows for a major re-think of how the universe actually works.

The old Newtonian/ Einsteinian gravity-only paradigms are being superceded. The Old cosmology crowd are rigidly sticking to their black holes and Big Bangs while it is becoming clear that electricity plays an enormous role in the entire universe. There is no religious agenda only a re-assessment of the past 100 years of dogma.

I would prefer to see some less orthodox, biased quotations than wikipedia in future. You couldn't find a more conservative, old school, anti-progress crowd if you tried.


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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 654 of 657 (623376)
07-09-2011 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 653 by cigarshaped
07-09-2011 8:44 PM


Re: catastrophe
His work deserves more honest assessment. Now there is a growing movement of dissident scientists and researchers continuing his themes.

Care to provide names and sources or is this just something you like to say?

The old Newtonian/ Einsteinian gravity-only paradigms are being superceded. The Old cosmology crowd are rigidly sticking to their black holes and Big Bangs while it is becoming clear that electricity plays an enormous role in the entire universe. There is no religious agenda only a re-assessment of the past 100 years of dogma.

Anything, anything at all to back this up?

I would prefer to see some less orthodox, biased quotations than wikipedia in future. You couldn't find a more conservative, old school, anti-progress crowd if you tried.

Try this.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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cigarshaped
Junior Member (Idle past 2056 days)
Posts: 5
From: Bracknell, UK
Joined: 07-08-2011


Message 655 of 657 (623449)
07-10-2011 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 654 by Theodoric
07-09-2011 8:48 PM


Re: catastrophe
The Exodus episode requires a fundamental reassessment of our understanding of the cosmos. This is what Velikovsky attempted, using humanity's records. If you are unwilling to accept the words of our predecessors then perhaps lab- shown principles will pave the way for a re-think.
I'll give you a website with daily challenge to conventional wisdom, for example.

The Thunderbolts team has just finished a 4 day Conference at Maryland University, in conjunction with another scientific group, the National Philosophy Alliance. Among the team are Professor Donald E. Scott PhD (Electrical Engineering) Electric Cosmos originator and Wallace Thornhill Electric Universe originator.

Both of these guys have done numerous experiments to demonstrate the behaviour of plasma and how it directly relates to cosmic phenomena. Electric Discharge Maching can be shown to originate virtually every crater seen in the solar system as I demonstrated here.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Hide and off-topic banner.


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jar
Member
Posts: 28838
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 656 of 657 (623452)
07-10-2011 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 655 by cigarshaped
07-10-2011 4:20 PM


Re: catastrophe
Which still has jack shit to do with the topic or whether or not the Biblical Exodus ever happened.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
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Adminnemooseus
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Member Rating: 3.2


Message 657 of 657 (623453)
07-10-2011 4:39 PM


Topic abandonment alert! - Short term closure
All messages should have some obvious connection to the question "Did the Biblical Exodus ever happen?".

Violators may be dealt with harshly.

Topic going to get a short term closure, otherwise this message will be totally ineffective.

Adminnemooseus


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