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Author Topic:   Why are there no human apes alive today?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 796 of 1075 (623482)
07-10-2011 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 791 by Mazzy
07-10-2011 3:12 PM


I understand that any ERV evidence that puts apes as being more closely related to each other than mankind is ignored.
No, you fantasize that any ERV evidence that puts apes as being more closely related to each other than mankind is ignored.
You have not produced any such evidence.
I can also work out for myself without a degree in science that if virus like Hendra goes unchecked this is a virus that could spread from bat to horse to human, leave markers, yet has nothing to do with common descent.
Which is why the sites of integration would not be homologous.
The models that you use to sort this stuff are biased and are full of insertion values that will give you the results you need to see.
If that sentence was written in English it would probably be wrong.
I have posted evidence that HIV is NOT endogenous and it is one of your leading examples of ERV's that demonstrate the chimp human link
No it isn't. Stop making things up.
Look ...it is all just guesswork and playing around with algorithims ...
Look ... no it isn't.
The fact that you don't understand it, which you don't, does nothing to cast doubt on it. After all, there must be lots of aspects of science that you don't understand. Pretty much all of them in fact. And yet somehow science continues to progress ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 791 by Mazzy, posted 07-10-2011 3:12 PM Mazzy has not replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 797 of 1075 (623490)
07-11-2011 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 780 by Mazzy
07-10-2011 4:16 AM


Re: Turkana ape-man
Turkana Boy may not be just like the apes today or the fossil is misrepresented in its construction. There are no fingers or toes. The point is the skull looks like an ape because it is an ape. It has a jutting jaw, large upper leg bones that look nothing like the human. Don't forget Neanderthal used to be a bent over ape man in most pictures, now he is as upright as you or I.
What ape does Turkana Boy so strongly resemble? What features must a fossil have in order for you to consider it transitional? Wouldn't a transitional fossil necessarily contain a mixture of non-human and human features?
It would seem to me that your creationist dogma has blinded you. Something is either a non-human or human. You are so blinded that you can not even tell us what a transitional fossil should look like.
Turkana Boy has narrower thoracic vertebrae and the face is highly prognathic (projecting), and it has a receding mandibular symphysis with no chin and distinct eyebrow ridges. He was some sort of ape.
Why can't a transitional fossil have these features?

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 798 of 1075 (623491)
07-11-2011 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 788 by Mazzy
07-10-2011 2:13 PM


All this nonsense on ERV's demonstrates is that organisms were exposed to the same virus eg Hendra, swine flu, HIV.
Due to the random nature of retroviral insertion, finding the same virus inserted into the same base in each genome indicates that the insertion occurred in a common ancestor. You keep ignoring the fact that these ERV's are found at the same base. Retroviruses insert throughout the entire genome, not in one spot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 788 by Mazzy, posted 07-10-2011 2:13 PM Mazzy has not replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 799 of 1075 (623492)
07-11-2011 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 791 by Mazzy
07-10-2011 3:12 PM


I understand that any ERV evidence that puts apes as being more closely related to each other than mankind is ignored.
Not at all. The ERV evidence indicates that bonobos and chimps are more closely related to each other than chimps are to humans. If you would actually familiarize yourself with the science you wouldn't make serious mistakes like this.
I can also work out for myself without a degree in science that if virus like Hendra goes unchecked this is a virus that could spread from bat to horse to human, leave markers, yet has nothing to do with common descent.
You would also learn that viruses insert randomly amongst billions of insertion sites. Therefore, finding multiple ERV's at the same base in each genome can not be due to independent insertions. It is due to a single insertions in a common ancestor.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 791 by Mazzy, posted 07-10-2011 3:12 PM Mazzy has not replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 800 of 1075 (623493)
07-11-2011 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 782 by Mazzy
07-10-2011 5:45 AM


This is how easy it is to misrepresent a fossil skull.
You seem to do it with ease. Can you tell us again how H. erectus more closely resembles a gorilla than it does a modern human?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 782 by Mazzy, posted 07-10-2011 5:45 AM Mazzy has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 801 of 1075 (623519)
07-11-2011 7:45 AM


Moderator on Duty
As of this morning I will be moderating this thread. I'm hoping to achieve a better focus on the two primary subtopics:
  1. The classification system that places Homo sapiens in the in the Hominidae family, popularly known as the "great apes", which itself resides within the Hominoidea superfamily, popularly known as apes.
  2. How relatedness is determined in both extant and extinct species, and how this applies to human ancestry.
The validity of the theory of evolution is not a topic of this thread. That subject is reserved for threads in the Biological Evolution forum. Anyone wishing to discuss evolution's validity or lack thereof should find a thread in that forum, or propose a new thread over at Report Discussion Problems Here 3.0.
Please PM me if you feel I've haven't properly captured this thread's topic, I'll make corrections as necessary.
As always, the Forum Guidelines serve as my guide. For those interested there is a Moderator Guide that outlines how moderators here at EvC Forum should try to carry out their responsibilities (it desperately needs updating - for one thing, it uses an older version of the Forum Guidelines).
I am not a stickler for following the Forum Guidelines. I ask no more than that people follow them pretty well much of the time. While discussion is moving constructively forward, which is the main goal of EvC, there isn't any need for a moderator to step in regardless of how well or poorly the Forum Guidelines are being followed.
Edited by Admin, : Grammar.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 802 by Taq, posted 07-11-2011 1:37 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 802 of 1075 (623551)
07-11-2011 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 801 by Admin
07-11-2011 7:45 AM


Re: Moderator on Duty
How relatedness is determined in both extant and extinct species, and how this applies to human ancestry.
Barring DNA recovery from fossils, it is impossible to determine with certainty if a fossil is a direct ancestor of any extant organisms. The best that can be done is to organize species, extant and extinct, based on shared characteristics using cladistics. In this method, no species is in the direct lineage of another. Rather, all species are joined by synapomorphies, the list of shared characteristics.
For extant species, the clade looks like this:
ABE: found a decent representation of the Hominid clade.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 801 by Admin, posted 07-11-2011 7:45 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 810 by Mazzy, posted 07-18-2011 3:35 PM Taq has replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2493 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 803 of 1075 (623575)
07-11-2011 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 788 by Mazzy
07-10-2011 2:13 PM


Mazzy needs to Clarify!
All this nonsense on ERV's demonstrates is that organisms were exposed to the same virus eg Hendra, swine flu, HIV.
So, you are saying that despite the fact that there are countless viruses and countless strains of each viruses, it's just a massive coincidence that EVERY SINGLE HUMAN AND OTHER PRIMATE all happened to acquire ALL the exact same viruses, AND have them ALL insert themselves in the EXACT same place in the genome completely at random.
And you don't understand why we don't take your position seriously?
Let's pretend for one microsecond that you could describe a mechanic by which this could take place.
That STILL doesn't explain the fact that the viruses that these groups have IN COMMON form a completely independent tree of descent which matches PERFECTLY with the DNA tree of descent, the fossil tree of descent and the morphological tree of descent.
Now, let's stop pretending.
Why don't you present us with ANY mechanism by which ALL chimps and ALL humans can contract the exact same version of the exact same virus and have it appear in the EXACT same point in the genome?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 788 by Mazzy, posted 07-10-2011 2:13 PM Mazzy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 804 by Taq, posted 07-11-2011 6:20 PM Nuggin has replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 804 of 1075 (623590)
07-11-2011 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 803 by Nuggin
07-11-2011 4:44 PM


Re: Mazzy needs to Clarify!
So, you are saying that despite the fact that there are countless viruses and countless strains of each viruses, it's just a massive coincidence that EVERY SINGLE HUMAN AND OTHER PRIMATE all happened to acquire ALL the exact same viruses, AND have them ALL insert themselves in the EXACT same place in the genome completely at random.
I think Percy has labeled this line of inquiry off limits for this thread. Just to help in further discussions, there are lineage specific ERV's that are not seen in orthologous positions in other species. Be careful when claiming that all species have all of the same exact insertions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 803 by Nuggin, posted 07-11-2011 4:44 PM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 805 by Nuggin, posted 07-11-2011 6:56 PM Taq has not replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2493 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 805 of 1075 (623593)
07-11-2011 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 804 by Taq
07-11-2011 6:20 PM


Re: Mazzy needs to Clarify!
Please discuss the topic and not the people discussing the topic. --Admin
Edited by Admin, : Hide content.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 804 by Taq, posted 07-11-2011 6:20 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 806 by AZPaul3, posted 07-11-2011 8:49 PM Nuggin has replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 806 of 1075 (623601)
07-11-2011 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 805 by Nuggin
07-11-2011 6:56 PM


Re: Mazzy needs to Clarify!
Please discuss the topic and not the people discussing the topic. --Admin
Edited by Admin, : Hide content.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 805 by Nuggin, posted 07-11-2011 6:56 PM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 807 by Nuggin, posted 07-11-2011 9:07 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2493 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 807 of 1075 (623602)
07-11-2011 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 806 by AZPaul3
07-11-2011 8:49 PM


Re: Mazzy needs to Clarify!
Please discuss the topic and not the people discussing the topic. --Admin
Edited by Admin, : Hide content.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 806 by AZPaul3, posted 07-11-2011 8:49 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 809 by Coyote, posted 07-11-2011 10:27 PM Nuggin has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 808 of 1075 (623606)
07-11-2011 9:46 PM


About ERVs
To the extent ERVs are relevant to establishing relatedness they seem on-topic for this thread.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 809 of 1075 (623610)
07-11-2011 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 807 by Nuggin
07-11-2011 9:07 PM


Good stuff deleted.
Good stuff deleted.
Edited by Coyote, : Good stuff deleted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 807 by Nuggin, posted 07-11-2011 9:07 PM Nuggin has not replied

Mazzy 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4591 days)
Posts: 212
From: Rural NSW, Australia
Joined: 06-09-2011


Message 810 of 1075 (624545)
07-18-2011 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 802 by Taq
07-11-2011 1:37 PM


Re: Moderator on Duty
Hey ...I think the reason why posters have played the "we can prove evolution' line eg ERV's is at least partly due to an inability to robustly provide evidence or supported theory as to why there are no hairy apey creatures around today. In other words, the theories as to why erectus and earlier homonids went extinct often changes.
ERV evidence is convoluted mathematical nonsense where your researchers propose deletions and all sorts of assertions to explain why some ERV's are not apparent in all apes or are not found where they should be.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/...ases/2007/06/070621140809.htm
I have provided research that suggests Erectus went extinct in all other countries apart from Africa, prior to the second wave of human migrations. According to this research below there was no cohabitation either. You do not know why. You may theorise but you cannot say for sure.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/...ases/2011/06/110629181853.htm
So we are left with the African Homo erectus eg Turkana Boy sometimes classed as eregaster. I am alledging Turkana Boy is an ape. The reason I alledge this is the skeleton has the facial morphology of an ape. I have also provided evidence that flaced morphology in apes has been around for at least 12my with Lluc.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/...ases/2009/06/090602083729.htm
One poster put up the Lluc fossils. Fine, however it is very interesting how many here will belittle and dispute research findings from your own evo scientists when it does not suit you Much, if not most your fossil evidence for human ancestry is based on fragmentary evidence and portrayed in articles and papers by representative sketches that you are happy to use when they align with your argument.
It appears to me that the reconstructed Lluc, sketched to be simply some kind of ape, has less pronagnathism than this Turkana Boy evos suggest is supposedly becoming human. A side view of the Turkana skull illustrates this. The skeleton also resembles the morphology of an ape. The legs protrude past the hip bones just like a gorilla's and has the robustness of a gorilla type creature. It is not human, nor is Turkana Boy becomming human.
Other erectus examples, including small fragments meant to represent a whole species eg Java man skull cap, are also only apes sketched up to look like they are becoming human. They are all apes
Below is an article that suggests erectus is even more gorilla like that previously thought.
"Significantly, the variation in size of East African Homo erectus fossils, from the petite new skull to a large specimen discovered previously at Olduvai Gorge in neighbouring Tanzania, almost rivals that shown by modern gorillas. In gorillas males are much larger than females, and this sexual dimorphism is related to their strategy of having multiple mates, observes co-author Susan Antn. The new Kenyan fossil suggests that, contrary to common belief, this may have been true of Homo erectus as well. Because great sexual dimorphism is thought to be a primitive, or ancestral, feature during human evolution, the diminutive new find implies that Homo erectus was not as human-like as once thought."
http://www.sciencedaily.com/...ases/2007/08/070813093132.htm
I've got to tell you guys that I can hardly believe that well educated researchers get so bamboozled by fossils that are no more than varieties of apes. Look at the skulls pictures in the articles. They look absolutely nothing like a human skull at all. These are the remnants of ape skulls.
I have previously mentioned your lack of chimp, gorilla etc ancestor fossils. I strongly suggest that any ape or variety thereof have been scooped up and thrown in the human line. Ardi, now disputed as being a human ancestor, but is now being seen as an ape ancestor is an example of these researchers doing so.
I have discredited your fossil evidence for human ancestry to apes. I conclude that there are no mid ape/human species alive today because there never were any.
Any on topic refute evolutionists can provide is only ever changing and debated theory as to why none have survived. The fact is that none are here today.
Hence I maintain of the many assertions as to why no ape men are around today, mine is the stronger as it is based on discreditation of the current Homo fossil evidence and does not require guesswork.
Edited by Mazzy, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 802 by Taq, posted 07-11-2011 1:37 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 811 by Taq, posted 07-18-2011 3:48 PM Mazzy has not replied
 Message 812 by Coragyps, posted 07-18-2011 3:58 PM Mazzy has replied
 Message 813 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-18-2011 5:39 PM Mazzy has not replied
 Message 815 by Admin, posted 07-18-2011 7:46 PM Mazzy has not replied
 Message 817 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-18-2011 9:21 PM Mazzy has replied

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