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Author Topic:   Did any sceptics ever consider Pilate a myth?
Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3441 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 1 of 21 (623512)
07-11-2011 4:57 AM


Gday all,
The subject of Pilate's existence, and sceptical doubts about it, and the connection to Jesus' existence, came up in another, now closed, thread.
I have looked into this, and here is what I found :
Believers sometimes claim that sceptics thought Pilate was a myth, up until an inscription naming him was found in 1961. There are numerous examples of this,
e.g. -
John Warwick Montgomery in "The Jury Returns: A Juridical Defense of Christianity"
' Modern archaeological research has confirmed again and again the reliability of New Testament geography, chronology, and general history. To take but a single, striking example: After the rise of liberal biblical criticism, doubt was expressed as to the historicity of Pontius Pilate, since he is mentioned even by pagan historians only in connection with Jesus' death. Then, in 1961, came the discovery at Caesarea of the now famous "Pilate inscription," definitely showing that, as usual, the New Testament writers were engaged in accurate historiography. '
MTI Front Page Online Hotel Reserveren in Utrecht
or -
"For years, skeptics have claimed that Pontius Pilate, the one responsible for Jesus' execution, was nothing more than a mythical figure."
Did Pontius Pilate actually exist?
or -
"How can atheists deny that Herod and Pontius Pilate existed when there are coins that were issued by them ? I have seen them. When they say the Bible is fiction, they would have to also deny numismatic evidence. "
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=2008020907141...
or -
"When critics of the Passion of the Christ argue about Pilate not being historical and Caiaphas being too rabid, they are ignoring Biblical accounts and secular history because they don’t like the Biblical story."
http://www.bible-sermons.org/classes/Passion2.doc
So, what does the record of history actually show ?
Here I list the references to Pilate through the centuries - I have included all the main cites I could find - Christian writers as well as sceptics. If any sceptic had claimed Pilate did not exist, some Christian would surely mention that - in the same way that when early sceptics denied Jesus came in the flesh, we see various Christians insisting he DID so.
Contemporary, early 1st century
Philo Judaeus was a direct contemporary of Pilate, and he refers to Pilate twice in his historical work "On the Embassy to Gaius" :
"Pilate was one of the emperor's lieutenants, having been appointed governor of Judaea."
Clearly Philo thought Pilate was historical.
Late 1st century
Josephus in late 1st century records Pilate numerous times in his two historical books (Wars and Antiquities), e.g. :
"When Gratus had done those things, he went back to Rome, after he had tarried in Judea eleven years, when Pontius Pilate came as his successor."
Clearly Josephus thought Pilate was historical.
Early 2nd century
Tacitus refers to Pilate in his Annals 15.44 around 116 CE :
"Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus,"
Clearly, Tacitus thought Pilate was historical, (although he does get his title wrong.)
Late 1st and 2nd century
Many early Christian books mention Pilate for his part in Jesus' story :
Mark, Matthew, Luke, John, Acts, The Epistle of the Apostles, The Gospel of Peter, Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Acts of Peter and Paul, the various Pilate forgeries, Irenaeus, Melito of Sardis, Clement of Alexandria.
Every single one of these books cites Pilate as a historical figure. No mention of sceptics who thought otherwise.
3rd century
Porphyry's fragments mentioned Pilate as historical.
Many Christian works and writers mention Pilate :
Acts of Andrew, Acts of Peter and Andrew, Acts of Thadeus, Acts of Thomas, Against Novatian, Acta Pilati, The Teaching of Simon Cephas in Rome, The Clementina, Cyprian of Carthage, Hippolytus, Origen, Peter of Alexandria, Tertullian.
Every single one of these books cites Pilate as a historical figure. No mention of sceptics who thought otherwise.
4th century
Many Christian works and writers mention Pilate :
The Constitution of the Holy Apostles, The Doctrine of Addai, The Gospel of Nicodemus, Ambrose, Aphrahat, Athanasius, Augustine, Basil the Great, Cyril of Jerusalem, Ephraim of Syria, Eusebius of Caesarea, Gennadius, Gregory Nazianzen, Gregory of Nyssa, Hilary of Poitiers, Jerome, John Chrysostom, Lactantius, Macarius Magnes, Optatus of Miletus, Palladius of Helenopolis, Rufins.
Every single one of these books cites Pilate as a historical figure. No mention of sceptics who thought otherwise.
5th century
Many Christian works and writers mention Pilate :
Aurelius Prudentius, Cyril of Alexandria, John Cassian, Leo the Great, Moses of Chorene, Philoxenus, Socrates Scholasticus, Sozomenus, Theodoret.
Every single one of these books cites Pilate as a historical figure. No mention of sceptics who thought otherwise.
6th and 7th century
Several Christian works and writers mention Pilate :
Aurelius Prudentius, Cyril of Alexandria, John Cassian, Leo the Great, Moses of Chorene, Philoxenus, Socrates Scholasticus, Sozomenus, Theodoret, Antiochus Strategos, John Nikiu.
Every single one of these books cites Pilate as a historical figure. No mention of sceptics who thought otherwise.
~9th century
The Anglo Saxon Chronicle mentions Pilate as historical :
"A.D. 26. This year Pilate began to reign over the Jews."
10th century
Various forged books about Pilate appear (e.g. The Death of Pilate) - all based on him being historical. No mention of any sceptics who claim he was a myth.
11th, 12th, 13th centuries
Various Christian books mention Pilate :
St Anselm, Giraldus Cambrensis, Barlaam and Ioasaph, Thomas Aquinas,.
Each of these books cites Pilate as a historical figure. No mention of sceptics who thought otherwise.
14th century
Dante mentions Pilate as historical in his Inferno.
The Travels of John Mandeville refer to Pilate as historical.
Chaucer mentions Pilate.
Henry Suso mentions Pilate as historical.
Julian of Norwich does too.
No hint of any sceptics who claimed he was a myth.
16th century
Edmund Spencer's "The Faerie Queen" mentions Pilate.
James Arminius mentions Pilate as historical.
John of the Cross mentions Pilate as historical.
Christopher Goodman's "How Superior Powers Ought To Be Obeyed" mentions Pilate as historical.
Teresa of Avila mentions Pilate as historical.
No hint of any sceptics who claimed he was a myth.
17th century
Shakespeare mentions Pilate as historical.
Blaise Pascal mentions Pilate as historical.
Francis Bacon mentions Pilate as historical.
John Locke mentions Pilate as historical.
No hint of any sceptics who claimed he was a myth.
18th century
Dupuis mentions Pilate as historical in his sceptical book which argues Christ was a myth :
' Those who have fabricated it, have added thereto fictitious events, not only at known places, as all the ancient poets have done in the fables of Hercules, Bacchus, Osiris, &c., but also at an epoch with well known names, such as the age of Augustus, of Tiberius, of Pontius Pilate, &c.; which does not prove the real existence of Christ, but only that the sacerdotal fiction is posterior to that epoch; and of this we have no doubt.'
Edward Gibbon mentions Pilate as historical in his "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire".
Thomas Paine mentions Pilate as historical in his sceptical book.
No hint of any sceptical claims that Pilate was a myth.
19th century
Albert Pike's "Morals and Dogma" mentions Pilate as historical.
Strauss' famous and sceptical "Life of Jesus Crtically Examined" mentions Pilate as historical.
Renan's famous and sceptical "The Life of Jesus" mentions Pilate as historical.
No hint of any sceptical claims that Pilate was a myth.
Early 20th century
Albert Schweitzer's famous and sceptical "The Quest for the Historical Jesus" mentions Pilate many times as historical.
Gerald Massey the mythicist mentions Pilate as historical.
John E. Remsberg's sceptical "The Christ" mentions Pilate as historical.
Joseph Wheless' sceptical "Forgery in Christianity" mentions Pilate as historical.
M.M. Mangasarian's sceptical "The Truth about Jesus" mentions Pilate as historical.
Marshall Gauvin's sceptical "Did Jesus Christ really Live?" mentions Pilate as historical.
Shirley Jackson Case's critical "The Historicity of Jesus" mentions Pilate as historical.
Walter Bauer's "Orthodoxy and Heresy in Earliest Christianity" mentions Pilate as historical.
G.R.S. Mead's "Did Jesus live 100 BC?" mentions Pilate as historical many times.
Kirsopp Lake's "Landmarks" mentions Pilate as historical.
Walter Cassels "Supernatural Religion" mentions Pilate as historical.
No hint of any sceptical claims that Pilate was a myth.
Mid 20th century
Alvin Boyd Kuhn's sceptical "Who is this King of Glory" mentions Pilate as historical.
Maurice Goguel's sceptical "Jesus the Nazarene - Myth or History?" has Pilate as historical.
Alfred Loisy "The Bith of the Christian Religion" has Pilate as historical.
Edgar J. Goodspeed's "An Introduction to the New Testament" has Pilate as historical.
Edward Carpenter's "Pagan and Christian Creeds : Their Origin and Meaning" has Pilate as historical.
No hint of any sceptical claims that Pilate was a myth.
1961
An inscription is found mentioning Pilate's name - the first archeological evidence for Pilate.
After 1961
Christian apologists start claiming that before the inscription was found Pilate was considered by sceptics to have been a myth.
Summary
There is NO evidence anywhere that anyone ever considered Pilate a myth.
We have dozens of references to him from almost every century, even including contemporary accounts. Every single one considers him historical. Even the sceptics who argued Jesus was a myth agree that Pilate was historical. Not one believer in history ever mentions anyone claiming Pilate was a myth.
Conclusion
The claim that any sceptics ever said Pilate was a myth is totally FALSE.
Kapyong
Edited by Kapyong, : Formatting.

Replies to this message:
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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 2 of 21 (623514)
07-11-2011 5:05 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Did any sceptics ever consider Pilate a myth? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 3 of 21 (623517)
07-11-2011 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Kapyong
07-11-2011 4:57 AM


I never met a person who says that Pontius Pilate was a myth, the problem is he was nothing like the bible described. A few years after Jesus the man crucified so many people that they ran out of wood for crosses, so its highly doubtful that he was prepared to grant mercy to Jesus, he would probably not even remember him, or ever talk to him. The whole washing of his hands would also be a myth. Probably made up by the roman empire so they would not look like the bad guys but the jews themselves would.

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Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 4 of 21 (623518)
07-11-2011 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Kapyong
07-11-2011 4:57 AM


Who says he was a myth?

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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 5 of 21 (623527)
07-11-2011 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Kapyong
07-11-2011 4:57 AM


I've never heard of anyone claiming that Pontius Pilate was a myth. He is well documented in Roman history.
Edited by Pressie, : Added a word

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 8 by Dr Jack, posted 07-11-2011 8:31 AM Pressie has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 6 of 21 (623528)
07-11-2011 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Pressie
07-11-2011 8:12 AM


I've never heard of anyone claiming that Pontius Pilate was a myth.
The OP agrees with this, but in addition to this piece of truth,
quote:
Believers sometimes claim that sceptics thought Pilate was a myth
And, in case you were unfamiliar with this phenomenon he provided some quotes of some believers that make this claim.

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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 7 of 21 (623529)
07-11-2011 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Modulous
07-11-2011 8:24 AM


Oh, I don't even have to look at Christian believers to do it for me. Philo was not a Christian, but he wrote about Pontius Pilate, too. Where do Christians get their weird idees from? Pontius Pilate a myth? Rhetorical question coming: Have some Christians lost track of all reality?
(Forgot to add, Philo wrote about Pontius Pilate, but didn't mention anything about Jesus. And he lived during the time of Jesus, unlike Josephus who "wrote" about Jesus later....)
Edited by Pressie, : Added a sentence

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Dr Jack
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Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 8 of 21 (623530)
07-11-2011 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Pressie
07-11-2011 8:12 AM


I've heard the claim before, although I can't remember where or who from. I can't say I much care either way whether he was a real figure or not. The use of real characters in fictional, or mythical, accounts is hardly a unusual event.

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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 9 of 21 (623536)
07-11-2011 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Dr Jack
07-11-2011 8:31 AM


It is like a very well-known science-fiction series that refers to Earth, but still has Mr. Spock featuring in it....it doesn't mean that Mr. Spock existed. Or a movie called Saving Private Ryan referring to President Roosevelt. It doesn't mean that Private Ryan existed, although president Roosevelt did exist. These Christians now want to pretend that skeptics doubt the existence of Earth and Pres. Roosevelt. For Christians it's hard to distinguish between fact and fiction. They think skeptics are the same.
Edited by Pressie, : Edit a few sentences
Edited by Pressie, : Added a sentence

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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 10 of 21 (623538)
07-11-2011 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Kapyong
07-11-2011 4:57 AM


Kapyong
I've read through your references where it is stated that skeptics apparantly claim that Pontius Pilate was not a historical figure. I couldn't find an original reference where any skeptic claims this anywhere. I only found the claim that : "skeptics insist that Pontius Pilate didn't exist". Could you point us to an original article where a skeptic doubted the existence of Pontius Pilate?

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 11 of 21 (623539)
07-11-2011 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Pressie
07-11-2011 9:22 AM


Could you point us to an original article where a skeptic doubted the existence of Pontius Pilate?
No he can't. That is kapyong's entire point! It is the subset of believers that say sceptics doubted the existence of Pontius Pilate, kapyong is not saying that. It is the believers therefore that need to point to such an article, since kapyong is sceptical that such doubt has ever seriously existed.
kapyong writes:
The claim that any sceptics ever said Pilate was a myth is totally FALSE.
Edited by Modulous, : added kapyong quote

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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 12 of 21 (623541)
07-11-2011 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Modulous
07-11-2011 9:27 AM


Yes, I know, but we need some religious person here to take the opposite viewpoint. Some debate.

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frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 13 of 21 (623542)
07-11-2011 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Pressie
07-11-2011 9:39 AM


Yes, I know, but we need some religious person here to take the opposite viewpoint. Some debate.
Yes, I know, but we need some religious person here to take the opposite viewpoint. Some debate.
I can see it now poncius pilot is not a myth you see we got the proof so stop telling such lies.
But we are agreeing with you
*puts fingers in ears* Lier lier pants on fire.

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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 14 of 21 (623549)
07-11-2011 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Pressie
07-11-2011 9:39 AM


Debate, Not Chat
How many times do we have to say this isn't a chat forum?????
If one isn't presenting an opposing view or more support for the position of the originator, then one should have enough common courtesy to not participate until there is something substantial to address.
Participants are supposed to move the discussion forward, not kill time until someone shows up with an opposing view.
This is a debate forum.
Please direct any comments concerning this Administrative msg to the General Discussion Of Moderation Procedures (aka 'The Whine List') thread.
Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour suspension.
Thank you
AdminPD Purple

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Chuck77
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 21 (623628)
07-12-2011 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Kapyong
07-11-2011 4:57 AM


Kapyong writes:
Conclusion
The claim that any sceptics ever said Pilate was a myth is totally FALSE.
Well, we can't know for sure. It's possible that just ONE sceptic could have said it.
Anyway, you did a good job of proving that most people don't think he's made up. Even tho i've been a "believer" for 19 years I can't ever remember this topic being brought up.
So, if this is a wide spread epidemic (as you seem to think it is based on your long detailed post) that believers are saying this about the sceptics, I think we should submit your post to AIG as one of the "Arguments we think creationists should NOT use".

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