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Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Subjective Evidence of Gods | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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Subjective Based on (or related to) attitudes, beliefs, or opinions, instead of on verifiable evidence or phenomenon. Contrasts with objective. Remember, this thread is about subjective evidence of gods, not just your God. If a book is subjective evidence for your God, then a book is subjective evidence for other gods. Believers will always consider their books to be true. How can you condemn the existence of another god when the believers are using the same type of subjective evidence you claim as support your God? Just because you don't choose to believe their claims, doesn't mean they don't have subjective evidence.
quote:That is the point. You have tried to apply some of the teachings of the Bible and they have worked for you. That is subjective because only you know what you did exactly and what came about. The same process won't necessarily work the same way for another person. There are many common sense teachings in the Bible that are not unique to the Bible. The proverbs are words of wisdom from the experiences of the time. Whether they are all still applicable today, I don't know. I haven't read or tried all of them. In times of need, inspiration can be pulled from any book, whether good or bad. There are many thoughts from the Bible that guide people in daily dealings, but they don't necessarily guide others the same way. That's subjective. We can all objectively see the same words on the paper (when looking at the same version of course), but our opinions or reactions won't all be the same.
Objective Neutral (bias free), relating to, or based on verifiable evidence or phenomenon instead of on attitude, belief, or opinion. Various people pray to gods for healing or safety, but not all are healed or safe. Various people don't pray for healing or safety, and not all are healed or safe. Unfortunately subjective evidence only works for the individual. This thread isn't about whether the Bible is true or not. You feel there is subjective evidence for your God, but you don't accept the subjective evidence for the gods of others. So if you can't accept theirs, why should they accept yours? Just because you believe the truth of your religious writings, doesn't mean another person can or should believe your truth over what they believe to be true. Then we get back to trying to prove objectively that a specific deity is real and the other is not. You haven't really shown us why subjective evidence is good for your God, but not for the gods of others.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote:That's kinda the point. You believe your god exists, but not the others. Why? You don't have to believe in the worship system or that any other god is as powerful as yours, but why don't you believe that they exist? Those believers have the experiences to believe just as you do. How can you say that your god exists and their s doesn't? quote:And yet you state that the Bible is true. Now you're implying that only your subjective evidence is valid or reasonable. How can we tell which subjective evidence is valid and which isn't? quote:That's why I mentioned the healing issue. Even amongst believers there are those who pray for healing and don't receive it. If an answer to prayer is subjective evidence for God's existence for an individual, then unanswered prayers are subjective evidence against God's existence for an individual. Believers don't usually take unanswered prayers as evidence against their god's existence. Let's look at the prayer evidence you presented in Message 3 concerning your shoulder. 3 John 1:2 isn't a prayer to God. The author is simply wishing his reader well. IOW, he's saying; "I hope this letter may find you well." From a Biblical standpoint it isn't a prayer and does not profess to confer healing if used as such. From an objective plain reading, the letter has nothing to do with healing. Another believer can speak the same words and receive no relief. So was your shoulder healed by your God, a different god, your own mind (meditation), or the warmth of your hand? Other than belief, can you tell which one it is? Have you tried praying to another god for healing? Subjective evidence isn't really a viable choice to determine the existence of a being. Great for individual choices, but doesn't go much further than that. Edited by purpledawn, : No reason given.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:That's pretty much the meaning of subjective. Subjective Based on (or related to) attitudes, beliefs, or opinions, instead of on verifiable evidence or phenomenon. Contrasts with objective. How is a belief evidence of gods? We all believe many different things as we go through our lives. We add them and drop them as our needs dictate. We also learn in life that belief that something exists doesn't mean that it does. If subjective evidence can be evidence for the existence of gods, it can also be evidence against the existence of gods.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't call me Dawn. If you need something short, use PD or Purple. As far as the topic, you making a claim that is beyond the scope of this thread to address. Yes, I know it is easier to find the right excuse for why I "don't get it" if you knew what I believe. Quite frankly you still on milk. My beliefs are irrelvant to your position.
quote:But when it came to the healing prayer, you didn't do what the Bible said. As I said, the letter had nothing to do with healing and neither did the sentence you supposedly spoke. In reality, you are saying that what you say is true, not the Bible. quote:You said answered prayer is subjective evidence of God's existence. So I can say that unanswered prayers would be evidence against a gods existence. As noted by others, the case for your God works just as well for other gods, but you would say that it doesn't. You still haven't explained why the subjective evidebce only applies to your god, other than your say so.
quote:You need to provide support for that statment. Just because you say it doesn't make it so. As others have noted, that leave the door open to supporting the existence of anything that doesn't answer. That even supports false gods. quote:You mistake is assuming you know what I think. I don't consider God a genie or someone who is there to help me get a house. That's your schtick. Please address the issue. The prayer you said was not a prayer and had nothing to do with healing. How is that subjective evidence of anything? Edited by purpledawn, : Wrong ID
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:The studies you shared also showed that Buddhist meditation works just as well. Buddhist don't worship a god.
Selflessness -- Core Of All Major World Religions -- Has Neuropsychological Connection It is important to note that individuals experience their God or higher power in many different ways, but that all people from all religions and beliefs appear to experience these connections in a similar way. How can prayer, answered or not, be subjective evidence of a god?
quote:A friendly reminder that this topic is about subjective evidence for gods only. It is not about objective evidence for gods. Hopefully you and those who continue to respond to your objective arguments will remember that and get back on topic.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Except that you didn't use a prayer from the Bible in the healing issue I addressed in Message 31 and Message 82. The words you used didn't speak to your circumstances. They had nothing to do with healing. The words didn't address your circumstance anymore than reading from the newspaper. How is using words that have nothing to do with healing constitute evidence of gods. If you could muster the same amount of belief and read words from the newspaper, would the healing have also taken place? You don't know. You need to provide more reasoning for the connection.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I agree, except for the literalism. Literalism isn't contained in the Bible. Literalism is a method of interpretation or translation. Many books contain truths, principles, lessons, analogies, and alegories, etc; even the newspaper. You haven't made a reasonable argument to explain how reading any line from the Bible had any part in the healing. Remember what subjective means: Characteristic of or belonging to reality as perceived rather than as independent of mind. All you've shown is that your belief probably played a part in the healing. As I said, if you could have the same strength of belief and read a few seemingly pertinent lines from the newspaper, the same healing may have happened. You don't know.
quote:Actually it does. Remember, subjective evidence is personal. What I consider to be subjective evidence is going to be different than yours. Your job in the debate is to give reasoned argumentation why I should accept your subjective evidence for your god. quote:You can't really prove subjective, you can only try to convince and you haven't done much to convince. You've claimed, but not much reasoned argumentation. At most you've shown your mind played a role in relieving your shoulder pain. Message 3 Chuck77 writes: I once prayed that my shoulder pain would be taken away. I prayed this prayer as I layed my right hand on my left shoulder: "I wish above all things that you may prosper and be in health, even as your soul prospers." 3 John 1:2 KLV. That's God speaking to me/us thru His word. Immediatly after I prayed it I was healed. No more pain. Obviously the words were irrelevant. From a Christian standpoint, the Bible is no more subjective evidence for the Christian God, than Science Fiction novels are subjective evidence of intelligent life on other planets and yes there are people who believe there is some truth in Science Fiction.
Survey shows many people believe science fiction is real Fictional writings can contain truths, just like the Bible. Parables are fiction. This parable is a very good example of how belief or bias can obscure reality. IOW, we see what we want to see.
The Axe
A man who lost his axe suspected his neighbour's son of stealing it. To him, as he observed the boy, the way the lad walked, the expression on his face, the manner of his speech - in fact everything about his appearance and behaviour betrayed that he had stolen the axe. Not long afterwards the man found his axe while digging in his cellar. When he saw his neighbour's son again, nothing about the boy's behaviour nor appearance seemed to suggest that he had stolen the axe.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Good grief! Talk about a mountain out of a mole hill. We're looking at subjective evidence of gods, not defense of religions. If one believes that love and peace could only come from gods, then the presence of people practicing these ideas would lead one to assume the presence of a god whether those preaching, teaching, or practicing love and peace believe in a god or not.
quote:As jar likes to say: "If God exists, She exists regardless of the belief or non-belief of man." Please keep to the topic.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:... and believe them. As you keep showing, it is the belief that is the power, not the object of belief, which I believe is GDR's point concerning subjective conclusions. As I showed in the parable in Message 191, subjective conclusions aren't always right. That's what you need to explain concerning your subjective conclusions. What makes your subjective conclusions right versus anyone elses subjective conclusion?
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