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Author Topic:   Why are there no human apes alive today?
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Message 949 of 1075 (625576)
07-24-2011 5:43 AM
Reply to: Message 938 by Mazzy
07-23-2011 3:12 PM


Mazzy Suspended 24 Hours
Hi Mazzy,
This is from the Forum Guidelines:
Last paragraph of the Forum Guidelines writes:
For the most part, members are expected to figure out for themselves how to stay within the guidelines. Moderators do not have the time to engage in discussions about violations or to coach members toward proper participation.
I've already gone considerably beyond what moderators normally do here in helping new members acclimate themselves to what is expected of discussion participants at EvC Forum. I've carefully considered whether I should invest more time in this endeavor, but it appears to me that you will continue to reject what I say as moderator and that there would be little point to it.
People are holding up a sort of mirror to you. True, it is affected by all their biases and opinions, but in the aggregate it is a pretty true picture. You can choose to reject what everyone is telling you, as you have been doing, or you can exercise a bit of introspection and engage in some self examination, seeking to understand what you are doing that is causing people to see you this way.
Let me respond to a couple things you said.
Mazzy writes:
Percy I have answered stacks of rebuttals.
You have clicked on the reply buttons of many messages and typed lots of text into message boxes, but you have never engaged the significant points, you rarely even quote what anyone says, most messages being just another essay repeating your original points yet again. Your evidence is often copious but almost always irrelevant. You seem unable and even uninterested in connecting relevant information to your positions. When people tell you this you just post another essay repeating your same points, but with new links to new but still irrelevant information.
If after several hundred messages you're still repeating the same points over and over again then something has gone wrong with the discussion.
The fact that I cannot respond to every one is hardly justification for accusing me of not taking up any challenge.
This is the second time you have replied as if I had said something that I definitely did not say. Throughout EvC Forum's history moderators have encouraged new members to take their time, not rush, not try to reply to everyone. No one's asking you to respond to every message or most messages or every point or most points. You're only being asked to engage meaningfully with the points you do choose to respond to. If moderators feel an important point is being missed then they can say so.
I am giving you another 24-hour suspension. During that period you can decide whether you're interested in figuring out how to constructively participate here. There will be no more coaching or coddling. If you decide to take an adversarial approach with moderators then there will be only one outcome: suspensions will become longer and more frequent and finally permanent.
Please, no responses to this message, or to any future moderation messages.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 938 by Mazzy, posted 07-23-2011 3:12 PM Mazzy has not replied

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Message 950 of 1075 (625577)
07-24-2011 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 939 by Mazzy
07-23-2011 3:19 PM


Hi Mazzy,
I would really love for you and DBlevins to have your one-on-one debate, but it will not happen unless there is a good outcome in this thread.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 939 by Mazzy, posted 07-23-2011 3:19 PM Mazzy has not replied

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Message 951 of 1075 (625585)
07-24-2011 7:13 AM


Statement of Topic
Hello everyone!
In Message 753 I announced that I would begin moderating this thread in a couple days, saying that discussion would continue for 300 messages after that point. I began actual moderation at Message 801, so this thread will continue until around 1100 messages, at which time I will request summations.
We've used up half the 300 messages and very little progress has been made, so I am going to narrow the topic considerably. All future discussion after this message will address this topic and only this topic:
  • The details and validity of the classification system that places Homo sapiens in the Hominidae family, popularly known as the "great apes", which itself resides within the Hominoidea superfamily, popularly known as apes.
Please, no responses to this message.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Posts: 12998
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Message 973 of 1075 (626047)
07-26-2011 8:31 PM


Repeating the Topic
The recent discussion has been a great improvement, but I think it would be helpful if someone could make it clear how the genetic side of the discussion fits into the constrained version of the topic I've defined, which I'm further clarifying now to exclude extinct species. I understand they play a role, but let's reach an understanding first about the modern classification of human beings. Here's my modified topic:
  • The details and validity of the classification system that places Homo sapiens in the Hominidae family (popularly known as the "great apes") along with chimps, gorillas, gibbins and orangutans. Extinct species should not be part of the discussion.
Nuggin, I know we disagree about whether people we feel are lying should be called out on it, but if you want to mix it up in that way then you will have to do that at another forum. I think the fact that Mazzy isn't conceding any points is preventing you from realizing how effectively you *are* making your points. Sometimes it helps to think of the impact on the lurkers. Also think how Mazzy must feel going it alone against several evolutionists with none of them conceding any of her points. You're not the only one experiencing feelings of frustration.
Edited by Admin, : Grammar.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 974 by Taq, posted 07-26-2011 8:37 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied
 Message 978 by Portillo, posted 07-27-2011 5:16 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

Admin
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Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1003 of 1075 (626283)
07-28-2011 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 995 by Nuggin
07-27-2011 10:21 PM


Nuggin Suspended 24 Hours
Hi Nuggin,
I know we disagree about this, but as moderator it is my responsibility to enforce the Forum Guidelines as I interpret them, and given that I wrote them I think my interpretation is fairly accurate. Because of your persistence in making the debate personal I am suspending you for 24 hours. See you tomorrow.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 995 by Nuggin, posted 07-27-2011 10:21 PM Nuggin has not replied

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Message 1004 of 1075 (626284)
07-28-2011 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1001 by Nuggin
07-28-2011 2:55 AM


Number of Matching ERVs Between Chimps and Humans
Nuggin writes:
No, Mazzy, what you've done is taken the fact that there are some 200,000 identical ERVs between chimps and humans and claimed that instead there were 7.
Taq has said something very similar about there being 200,000 matching ERVs between chimps and humans. I've been following many of the links to technical articles that have been provided and have not been able to track down a source for this claim. Could someone please supply it?
--Percy
Edited by Admin, : Clarify.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1001 by Nuggin, posted 07-28-2011 2:55 AM Nuggin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1007 by Taq, posted 07-28-2011 10:17 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

Admin
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Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 1012 of 1075 (626352)
07-28-2011 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1011 by Mazzy
07-28-2011 3:59 PM


ERV's and Determinations of Relatedness
Hi Mazzy,
Normally I wouldn't see the need to call attention to the fact that Nuggin was suspended for 24 hours, but you frequently mention to me in email that you are experiencing difficulty viewing messages and so maybe you can't tell that Nuggin is suspended, so I thought I'd mention it. Suspension is indicated by a circular red icon next to the member's name. If you hover your mouse over the icon a hoverbox will appear with the time remaining in the suspension. If you click on the icon the reason for the suspension will appear.
Rule 5 of the Forum Guidelines requests that you post no bare links, that you make your point in your own words and describe how the links support your point. Could you please supply this information for these links? I have examined them and do not see how they support your position. A couple of these links are to long articles, so you may want to identify just where in the article you found the supportive information:
It wasn't clear how the remainder of your post addressed the topic, which conerns the details and validity of the classification system that places chimps, gorillas, humans, gibbons and orangutans in the same group. The rest of your post seemed to consist primarily of criticisms of other areas of biology.
There are less than 90 messages left before discussion in this topic will end. Time is growing short. I think it is time to make progress on the ERV discussion, and if this hasn't happened within another 20 messages or so then I will constrain the topic further to exclude ERVs and focus exclusively on classification based upon morphology, i.e., Linnaean classification.
I don't see how the other participants can make any progress on the ERV subtopic if your position is that if someone wrote something (in this case, that there are only 7 ERVs held in common between chimps and humans) then you're going to believe it despite quotes of and citations to the technical research indicating that whoever wrote it was mistaken. It is because of what seems like the unlikelihood of progress on ERVs that I'm going to limit further discussion on them to around 20 more messages.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1011 by Mazzy, posted 07-28-2011 3:59 PM Mazzy has not replied

Admin
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Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1017 of 1075 (626366)
07-28-2011 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1016 by Mazzy
07-28-2011 7:00 PM


ERVs as a topic are still okay
Hi Mazzy,
Are you still having trouble viewing posts? I'm only asking because you said this about ERVs:
Mazzy writes:
We have been requested by admin to move on.
But I didn't request that you move on. I said I would allow 20 more posts to make progress on the ERV topic. If it doesn't happen within 20 posts then I'm going to insist discussion move on.
And then in Message 1014 you wrote about Homo erectus, Homo ergaster, Homo rudolfensis and Turkana Boy, but back in Message 973 I ruled extinct species off-topic, here is the constrained topic description again:
  • The details and validity of the classification system that places Homo sapiens in the Hominidae family (popularly known as the "great apes") along with chimps, gorillas, gibbins and orangutans. Extinct species should not be part of the discussion.
If you really are experiencing a great deal of difficulty viewing posts then I think it might be a good idea to fix that problem before continuing the discussion. There's no hurry.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1016 by Mazzy, posted 07-28-2011 7:00 PM Mazzy has not replied

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Posts: 12998
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Message 1031 of 1075 (626429)
07-29-2011 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1023 by Mazzy
07-28-2011 10:57 PM


Re: Moderator Advisory
Hi Mazzy,
Please see my Message 1017 from yesterday. Extinct species are off-topic. Here's the definition of the constrained topic:
  • The details and validity of the classification system that places Homo sapiens in the Hominidae family (popularly known as the "great apes") along with chimps, gorillas, gibbins and orangutans. Extinct species should not be part of the discussion.
Mazzy, a lot of the moderation issues in this thread occur because it seems like you haven't read the messages, including the moderation messages from me. As I said earlier, if you really are experiencing a great deal of difficulty viewing posts then I think it might be a good idea to fix that problem before continuing the discussion. There's no hurry. Let me know if you need any help.
Edited by Admin, : Grammar.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1023 by Mazzy, posted 07-28-2011 10:57 PM Mazzy has not replied

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Message 1032 of 1075 (626431)
07-29-2011 11:28 AM


Moderator Advisory
Because so many posts have been taken up by me, the ERV discussion can continue up until around message 1050, but if no progress is being made by then then discussion will have to move on to exclusively consider morphological classification. Concerning that topic, the evolution side should explain why humans, chimps, gorillas, gibbons and orangutans are all in a single group, and the creation side should explain not just why they shouldn't be grouped, but how they should be regrouped and why.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Admin
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Posts: 12998
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Message 1041 of 1075 (626512)
07-29-2011 4:25 PM


Place Hands over Ears Before Reading
EXTINCT SPECIES ARE OFF-TOPIC
You can remove your hands now. Sorry for the shouting, but I've mentioned this several times now and its getting ignored. The classification issue should be discussed from a Linaean perspective.
I'm making the classification issue the top priority because the two sides are using two different definitions of ape when discussing what is ape and what isn't. Agreement on terms is a prerequisite for any discussion.
The evolution side should explain why humans, chimps, gorillas, gibbons and orangutans are placed within a single group, and the creation side should explain not just why they shouldn't be grouped together, but how they should be regrouped and why.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Admin
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Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
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Message 1044 of 1075 (626536)
07-29-2011 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1043 by Mazzy
07-29-2011 7:34 PM


Re: Repeating the Topic
Mazzy writes:
"The evolution side should explain why humans, chimps, gorillas, gibbons and orangutans are placed within a single group, and the creation side should explain not just why they shouldn't be grouped together, but how they should be regrouped and why."
As far as ERV's are concerned they are not a measure of common descent and therefore have no basis for groupings.
Where as the fossils you have that are meant to be intermediates are all apes as they can be distingiushed by a variety of factors most importantly human variation is skull and the ability to engage in sophisticated language. eg ape headed Ruldolphensis and Turkana Boy whose skulsl look the same comparatively, are apes as they meet my criteria for apes.
I have produced pictures and info previously suggesting evo intermediates do not fit this criteria and therefore should not be placed in the same group as apes.
So just a few issues with this:
  • Are you having trouble with quote boxes? If so, please let me know and I will try to assist you.
  • The question isn't about whether humans are apes. The question is about whether humans, chimps, gorillas, gibbons and orangutans should be grouped together at some level of a classification hierarchy.
  • Extinct species are off-topic. I have said this a number of times. Are you still having trouble viewing posts? If so, please let me know and I will try to assist you.
Please do let me know whether you are having trouble viewing posts, because the next time you appear not to have seen my messages I will assume you are ignoring moderation.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1043 by Mazzy, posted 07-29-2011 7:34 PM Mazzy has not replied

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Message 1051 of 1075 (626578)
07-30-2011 5:28 AM


Discussion of ERVs is now Off Topic
There should be no further discussion of ERVs.
Discussion from here until summation time at around 1120 messages (I'm increasing the limit by 20 because of my own posts) should be about classification from a Linnaean perspective, specifically:
Question: Morphologically, should humans, chimps, gorillas and orangutans be grouped together at some level of a classification hierarchy?
The evolution side should explain why humans, chimps, gorillas and orangutans are placed within a single group, and the creation side should explain not just why they shouldn't be grouped together, but how they should be regrouped and why.
In referring to this grouping participants shall use the name Hominidae. This is the family familiarly known as the great apes, but the term apes is still in dispute and so cannot be used in the discussion.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 1053 by Nuggin, posted 07-30-2011 11:37 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1065 by ZenMonkey, posted 07-30-2011 10:35 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1072 by Taq, posted 08-01-2011 1:34 PM Admin has replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1062 of 1075 (626634)
07-30-2011 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1060 by Mazzy
07-30-2011 4:49 PM


Re: How Barimology works
Hi Mazzy,
I was gratified to see this, I was afraid you weren't able to read my messages:
Mazzy writes:
We are restricted in our discussion. If you have a problem with that take it up with admin.
So imagine my disappointment when the very next paragraph began like this:
I will not find it hard to find the discontinuity between a dinosaur and a bird.
I'm not sure why you brought up the dinosaur/bird issue. Nuggin didn't mention it. ZenMonkey (Nuggin was replying to ZenMonkey, not you) didn't mention it. And I've said that the topic concerns classification of humans, chimps, gorillas and orangutans, and not any extinct species.
I'm going to suspend you for 24 hours, not because you've done anything wrong, because I'm not sure that you have. But you're not at all forthcoming about why you are having so much difficulty understanding what people say. It often seems that you haven't read a message, or at least a great deal of a message. You mentioned several times in email that you have difficulty viewing posts. Please send me a PM and let me know if you are still experiencing this difficulty and whether this explains why it often seems that you haven't read what people are posting to you. If this is the reason then we should fix this problem before discussion resumes.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1060 by Mazzy, posted 07-30-2011 4:49 PM Mazzy has not replied

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(3)
Message 1069 of 1075 (627221)
08-01-2011 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1068 by Mazzy
08-01-2011 12:53 PM


Hi Mazzy,
I didn't see any PMs from you, though perhaps you sent me an email, I won't be able to check until tonight. But if you can post messages then you can send PMs, which is what I requested you do.
I don't know why you are ignoring my requests and much of the contents of other participant's messages, but you are, so in what I'm going to say next I'm going to enlarge the text and change the color to red so that everything I say will be very easy to see:
  • In this message, your very first post after returning from suspension, you have ignored my requests to leave extinct species like Homo erectus out of the discussion.
  • You have ignored my requests to send a PM telling me if there are any difficulties you're experiencing reading messages.
EvC Forum attempts to differentiate itself from the rest of the Internet by providing a venue where discussion between creationists and evolutionists can actually make constructive progress. This is achieved through moderated debate following a set of Forum Guidelines that are neutral with respect to the opposing viewpoints. If debate participants are permitted to ignore moderation then it will be impossible for EvC Forum to achieve its goals, and so moderators enforce the Forum Guidelines through the suspension process.
So I'm going to suspend you now, and you will remain suspended until you and I have a discussion via PM (which will still work while you're suspended).
Edited by Admin, : Grammar.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1068 by Mazzy, posted 08-01-2011 12:53 PM Mazzy has not replied

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