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Author Topic:   Definition of Species
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 716 days)
Posts: 2962
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 388 of 450 (625612)
07-24-2011 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 387 by IamJoseph
07-24-2011 9:54 AM


Re: DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU BELIEVE.
Imagine if you believed in a flat earth 500 years ago and said that as confidently?

If you believed the Earth was flat 500 years ago, you would be 1500 years behind.

And, your belief would not account for observable data. It would not make accurate predictions. It would not yield any workable results.

Can you give us an example of an invention based on flat earth?
Can you give us a paper written by any flat earth believers which adequately accounts for oceans?

We are confident in evolution not because we want to be confident in something. We are confident in evolution because evolution accurately explains existing data, it accurately predicts future data, and it yield real world workable products.

Can you say the same for Creationism?
Creationism can't account for existing data. It can't predict any future findings. And in THOUSANDS of years it has yet to yield a single product.

In short, there's no there there.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by IamJoseph, posted 07-24-2011 9:54 AM IamJoseph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 390 by IamJoseph, posted 07-24-2011 9:47 PM Nuggin has responded

    
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 716 days)
Posts: 2962
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 389 of 450 (625613)
07-24-2011 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 384 by IamJoseph
07-24-2011 7:24 AM


Re: DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU BELIEVE.
namely an abberation subject to maybe trillions of uncommon occurences happening simultaiously but which no one has ever witnessed in reality.

Countless lab experiments have been done measuring mutation rates.

Can you site a single lab experiment which measures Creationism beams?

The environment effects like a hand touching fire, which it not the impacting factor here by a country mile.

Explain fetal alcohol syndrome.

To disprove this you have only one credible option. Leave one of the two parent hosts on a ledge with any environment you choose - and effect a reproduction.

You are mistaking the environment of the womb with the environment that the parent is in prior to conception.

However, I'll take your bait. Take any man and have him spend a couple of months walking around Chernobyl, then use that sperm to create a child.

You tell us, did the environment effect his reproductive material?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by IamJoseph, posted 07-24-2011 7:24 AM IamJoseph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 392 by IamJoseph, posted 07-24-2011 10:12 PM Nuggin has responded

    
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 716 days)
Posts: 2962
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


(1)
Message 391 of 450 (625658)
07-24-2011 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 390 by IamJoseph
07-24-2011 9:47 PM


Re: DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU BELIEVE.
IMO, this is v short sighted and incorrect. The flat earth people were fully and equally intelligent for their time, and had no way of rejecting a flat earth.

Wrong. Eratosthenes in 240BC measured the Earth's circumference. To claim that people 1500 years later had "no way of rejecting a flat earth" is just ***.

Every one of us would come to the same conclusion in their times: tell us why the earth is not flat without a telescope?

You can see the curve of the Earth on the horizon.
Ships at see are spotted by their sails first, not their hulls.
The shadow of the Earth during a lunar eclipse is round.
Water would pour off the edge of a flat Earth.

There's 4 observations off the top of my head in 30 seconds. Not one of which requires a telescope.

1. Evolution does NOT explain existing data

Of course it does. We look at measurements of change in a population over time. Evolution explains those changes. That's existing data which is explained by evolution.

There is Creationist explanation which accounts for changes in populations.

Evolution comes from genesis

Wrong.

3. Evolution is a later development in the universe, preceded by a host of factors which anticipate life

Also wrong.

4. Evolution is the wiring process in a directive program

Also wrong.

Here's a tip, you can't just make claims like this without offering ANYTHING to back them up. I don't need to present any evidence to disprove your complete lack of evidence. I just need to tell you you are wrong.

Today, most humans are behaving exactly like the ancients who bowed to thunder and made it their deity

Correct, the majority of humans believe in mythical wizards like "God" or "Shiva" and bow to them asking for magical favors or to protect them from natural events.

That's what the Creationists do.

Creationism is far superior and a far greater science

Then it should have produced at least one working product in the last 2000 years. What has Creationism produced? What new medicine? What new invention? What new treatment?

We've been asking and asking, surely you must have SOMETHING that Creationism is solely responsible for.

Its the only document humanity possesses which did (make predictions) - numerously.

Name one fossil which was predicted by Creationism. Name one previously undiscovered species which was predicted by Creationism. Name one complication of medicine which was predicted by Creationism?

I stand by my statement. Creationism has never made a single successful prediction about future data.

Most all products we call science stems from the Hebrew bible; it KO'd Zeus and Jupiters when humanity was ready and introduced Monotheism

... which the Jews stole from the Egyptians. So, really, what you are arguing is that Ra is the one true God and that the Jews had it wrong.

Basically, you just shot your entire argument in the foot.

The rest of your claims are also about Judaism not Creationism.

Are you changing your argument from Creationism should be taught in science class to Judaism should be taught in science class?

Seriously? Maybe you should take a moment and figure out exactly what you are trying to argue, cuz right now you are coming across more than a little retarded.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by IamJoseph, posted 07-24-2011 9:47 PM IamJoseph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 394 by IamJoseph, posted 07-24-2011 11:13 PM Nuggin has not yet responded

    
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 716 days)
Posts: 2962
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


(1)
Message 393 of 450 (625662)
07-24-2011 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by IamJoseph
07-24-2011 10:12 PM


Re: DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU BELIEVE.
Mutation rates are subject to a directive program [laws]; once there was no mutation and no laws. You have to give a scenario how something can mutate w/o respective laws before you align with any science.

I don't have to give a scenario as to how something can happen without "respective laws" until you can demonstrate that such laws ACTUALLY exist.

You haven't.

You are the one making the claim here, it's your job to prove it.

Take your best shot, then I'll tell you why you are wrong.

Yes. Laws embedded in base particles.

What laws? How are those "Creationism Beams"? You are supposed to be describing a mechanism of Creationism. Something that we can point at an empty box and have a giraffe come out.

There is no evolution on Mars, our closest neighbour, despite almost every element found there as on earth. Thus evolution is critically focused on this planet,

Error 1: You don't know there is no evolution on Mars. Right now, the best you can say is that we have not detected life on Mars.

Error 2: You are using a set of exactly 2 planets out of literally an uncountable number of planets and saying "because there isn't like on A, therefore B must be magic". WRONG.

Error 3: You are claiming that evolution is "critically focused" on Earth as if evolution could only occur here and not on some other planet where there is also life. I admit that right now we don't have evidence of life on other planets, however that does not mean that there is none. We've examined Earth and found life. We've peaked at Mars. We've done just about nothing else.

light and darkness on this planet which produces equal sleep time for life forms [unlike the 12 year dark nights on Jupiter]

Error 4: You are saying that Earth has equal day/night and that Jupiter doesn't because Jupiter has 12 year long nights. How long are Jupiter's days? Busted.

Attributes embedded which cause changes in fermentation processes which create a reaction on human livers - something like that.

Error 5: You are claiming that the above happens within a fetus regardless of exposure to alcohol. Exactly HOW is the fermentation process effecting the fetus without the fetus being exposed to the fermentation?

Why introduce chernoble? I never said that one cannot disrupt a system if they tried. You have not taken the bait, it was not a bait but a simple question. You cannot explain reproduction with environemental FX.

Error 6: You are claiming that the environment can not effect reproduction. Try having a child after walking around Chernobyl. CLEARLY that environment is going to have an effect on reproduction.

Man, you really screwed this whole post up. You should take more time and maybe get a little help from a grown up before you post.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by IamJoseph, posted 07-24-2011 10:12 PM IamJoseph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 396 by IamJoseph, posted 07-25-2011 12:02 AM Nuggin has responded

    
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 716 days)
Posts: 2962
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


(1)
Message 397 of 450 (625671)
07-25-2011 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 396 by IamJoseph
07-25-2011 12:02 AM


Re: DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU BELIEVE.
But all laws the world accepts and turns by, such as judiciary, ethics, morality, animal rights laws, copyright laws, women's rights, liberty, inalienable human rights, slaves converted to contracted wirkers with rights - are contained exclusively in the Hebrew bible - all of them - in their entirety.

Wrong, but more importantly completely irrelevant. None of that has anything to do with Evolution. None of it provides any evidence for Creationism.

At _BEST_ you can say that human societies are built on a few simple principles like "don't kill each other" and "don't take other people's stuff". Hardly exclusive to the Jews.

When we speak of how life emerged, there is no way this can be credible without the actions before life listed in Genesis

Genesis claims that people are made of clay.
People are not made of clay.
Beginning middle and end of your claim right there.

there is no evidence of life [as opposed 'proof'] in the known universe for 15 Billion years; no imprints whatsoever.

There aren't enough zeros in the internet to describe mathematically how little of the Universe we've explored. You are drawing you conclusions based on the less than 1% of Mars we've explored. We've done NO exploration of any of the other planets, NO exploration of any moons other than a small fragment of our own.

You are drawing conclusions not supported by evidence.

A first hand actual survey of the known universe confirms this:

Wow. Now you are claiming that you know someone who has searched the ENTIRE UNIVERSE PERSONALLY.

What's his name?

At this time, till you come up with life - Genesis wins.

Life exists. Look around you. You lose.

The fact is humans cannot surive on Jupiter's ratio of day and night.

First of all, the day/night ratio on Jupiter is NOT a factor in human survival there. Second, who gives a crap if humans are effected by the ratio, we don't live there. It only matters to whatever life LIVES on jupiter.

You are trying (and FAILING) to argue that we live on Earth because we fit Earth's day/night schedule - in other words, "It's a miracle that puddles all find the right sized holes".

Pathetic.

The evidence denies random.

Who claims anything is random? Are you aware of the word "selection" and what it means?

This is a ridiculous statement.

Hey, you are the one trying to argue that fetal alcohol syndrome happens in the absence of alcohol. I'm just giving you enough rope to hang yourself. It's not my fault you're sounding ***. If you dont' want to sound ***, stop saying *** things.

Chernoble and abortion are not environmental factors

Chernobyl is a CITY. Are you REALLY going to claim that a CITY is NOT an environment. Show me ON YOUR BODY where your Chernobyl is located.

Remember what I said a second about about not saying *** things. Go back and read it again.

I don't bow to a diety called Nature - the antithesis of science.

No, you bow to "Yahweh the Jew Wizard" because your mommy told you to and you think your mommy is always right.

I am grown up;

Uh huh. Yet here you are crying like a baby and screaming for your mommy. Very convincing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by IamJoseph, posted 07-25-2011 12:02 AM IamJoseph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 398 by IamJoseph, posted 07-25-2011 1:08 AM Nuggin has responded

    
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 716 days)
Posts: 2962
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 399 of 450 (625673)
07-25-2011 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 398 by IamJoseph
07-25-2011 1:08 AM


So much ***, so little time
You've written a lot of *** shit and apparently are only interested in repeating the same flawed claims over and over again. As such, I'm going to scrap most of that crap and just focus on one particularly golden turd of your "logic".

Do you understand what it means when we have not a trace or imprint of life in the known universe for 15 Billion years?

Your argument APPARENTLY (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that since we have yet to discover life elsewhere in the Universe, there is no other life in the Universe.

What percentage of the Universe have we adequately searched, in your opinion? 50%? 75%?

Go on, tell us.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 398 by IamJoseph, posted 07-25-2011 1:08 AM IamJoseph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 401 by IamJoseph, posted 07-25-2011 2:02 AM Nuggin has responded
 Message 407 by Chuck77, posted 07-25-2011 4:28 AM Nuggin has responded

    
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 716 days)
Posts: 2962
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 400 of 450 (625674)
07-25-2011 1:50 AM


Gotta Love Censorship
Here's what I love about the new censorship.

Stu.pid gets ***
L.ie gets ***
Shit and Fuck are both A-OKAY!


Replies to this message:
 Message 402 by IamJoseph, posted 07-25-2011 2:15 AM Nuggin has responded

    
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 716 days)
Posts: 2962
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


(1)
Message 403 of 450 (625681)
07-25-2011 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 401 by IamJoseph
07-25-2011 2:02 AM


Re: So much ***, so little time
Wrong - I am correcting you. I am saying the evidence favors no life.

And the "evidence" consists of...

Out of HOW many possible planets?

Now if you have a 100 story building and are looking for green monkeys, you can say the tower is too big for you to check. Then you only check three floors, a reasonable solution since you cannot possibly traverse all floors - and you find no green monkeys.

The probability factor says there are no monkeys in all 100 levels.

That's RETARDED.

If you lose your keys, do you check one pocket in one pair of pants and then conclude that your keys don't exist?

Till then, you are wrong: there is no life out there.

Well that rules out Genesis. No life out there means no God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by IamJoseph, posted 07-25-2011 2:02 AM IamJoseph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 405 by IamJoseph, posted 07-25-2011 3:23 AM Nuggin has responded

    
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 716 days)
Posts: 2962
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


(1)
Message 404 of 450 (625682)
07-25-2011 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 402 by IamJoseph
07-25-2011 2:15 AM


Re: Gotta Love Censorship
You wrongly quoted Genesis as man came from clay.

You wrongly quoted Genesis that man came from iodine and phosophorous.

You failed to acknowledge the discrepency in ToE of not listing actions which predate life.

Why should ToE have anything to with anything pre-life? It's a part of BIOLOGY.

ToE also doesn't address gravity. So what?

You failed to acknowledge that today's laws for humanity stem from the Hebrew bible

I refuted it.

You failed to acknowledge the first recording of the universe being finite

Prove that it's finite.

that there is no alternative to Creationism or Monotheism.

Polytheism.

'selection' is nothing other than a random occurence

No, selection is the opposite of random.

Basically your assessment of the entire discussion is woefully wrong, just like all your points have been.

Let's sum this up.

You believe that Jews are magic because your mommy told you Jews are magic. Period. That's the entire reason you hold your belief.

The rest of us deal in facts and don't give a crap what your mommy thinks.

End of story.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by IamJoseph, posted 07-25-2011 2:15 AM IamJoseph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 406 by IamJoseph, posted 07-25-2011 3:39 AM Nuggin has responded

    
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 716 days)
Posts: 2962
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 409 of 450 (625712)
07-25-2011 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 405 by IamJoseph
07-25-2011 3:23 AM


Re: So much ***, so little time
I honestly don't think you are smart enough to understand exactly how wrong you are.

I have better things to do with my time than try and educate a child.

Edited by Admin, : Hide off-topic content.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by IamJoseph, posted 07-25-2011 3:23 AM IamJoseph has not yet responded

    
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 716 days)
Posts: 2962
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


(1)
Message 410 of 450 (625717)
07-25-2011 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 407 by Chuck77
07-25-2011 4:28 AM


Profoundly out of touch
It's obsevable you say? The scienctific method? But, in order to make a point, you suspend all that by saying you cannot check the whole universe? LOL. Well, in that case all the fossils that have been found should not be evidence since there has to be MILLIONS more right? How can one make such a conclusion with only 1% of the fossil evidence?

Wow, and I thought Joseph was a problem.

Do you _REALLY_ not understand the difference between evidence and lack of evidence? REALLY?

Joseph is trying to claim that because 1% of the surface of Mars doesn't have life, then the ENTIRE REST OF THE UNIVERSE must not contain life.

Now you are trying to claim that because we HAVE EVIDENCE of evolution, evolution must be false because there is MORE evidence for up to obtain.

These are fundamental misunderstandings that can't be corrected by someone smarter than you telling you the right answer. You need to go back to step one and get an education.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by Chuck77, posted 07-25-2011 4:28 AM Chuck77 has not yet responded

    
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 716 days)
Posts: 2962
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 411 of 450 (625718)
07-25-2011 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 406 by IamJoseph
07-25-2011 3:39 AM


Bible
Of course humans contain those things. How else? Are you short of iodine or iron - get yourself checked.

You said that these two elements are specifically mentioned in the Bible. That was a L.I.E.

Now, back on topic.

The Bible has NO workable definition of species, therefore Creationism has no workable definition of species.

Couple that with Creationisms no workable definition of mechanism and no accounting for existing or future data and you're left with NADA.

Edited by Nuggin, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by IamJoseph, posted 07-25-2011 3:39 AM IamJoseph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 412 by IamJoseph, posted 07-25-2011 9:53 AM Nuggin has responded

    
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 716 days)
Posts: 2962
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 413 of 450 (625721)
07-25-2011 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 412 by IamJoseph
07-25-2011 9:53 AM


Re: Bible
I say that every aspect of Darwin's notions of species is already contained in Genesis,

You say that often. Doesn't make it right.

Genesis just says "kind". That's not a definition of species. It doesn't even distinguish between family/genus/species.

It's a giant fail. As usual.

I know of no other document

Yeah, that pretty much sums up the entire problem with this discussion.

You know one document and you want to pretend it has the answers for everything. The rest of us know more and disagree.

I am of course willing to be enlightened.

You and I both know this isn't true.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by IamJoseph, posted 07-25-2011 9:53 AM IamJoseph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 416 by IamJoseph, posted 07-25-2011 10:26 AM Nuggin has responded

    
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 716 days)
Posts: 2962
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 420 of 450 (625732)
07-25-2011 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 416 by IamJoseph
07-25-2011 10:26 AM


Re: Bible
Once more with feelings. The word kinds is a most appropriate word here, considering that specie is very recent and thus not understandable by all generations.

So "kind" is the best definition of species because species isn't a word yet.

Does that make sense to you?

That's like saying "stuff" is the best definition for any given noun because "stuff" is easier to understand than any given noun.

...kinds... processed, .... host seed ... transmitted ... process ...
The standout features of Genesis' mode ...

... Pre-actions ...

... dual gendered ...

Tomato. Lettuce. Carrots. Word salad.


Today, a growing number of scientists are inclining with genesis

Meaning there was one and now there is two. OMGBBQ! It's increased 100%!!!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by IamJoseph, posted 07-25-2011 10:26 AM IamJoseph has not yet responded

    
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 716 days)
Posts: 2962
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 421 of 450 (625733)
07-25-2011 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 415 by Admin
07-25-2011 10:06 AM


Re: Moderator Advisory
Accusations that someone is *** are uncivil. In my experience people are almost always mistaken or misinformed and are honestly stating what they believe to be true.

In my experience the opposite is true. Especially when it comes to Creationists.

They are even citing websites (AIG for example) that flat out admit that they are willing to change the facts to fit what they believe.

The goal of the Creationist is to convert. Honestly plays no role in their tactics whatsoever.

Saying it's "uncivil" to call someone out on their tactics basically is telling the entire science side of the debate to go home.

Every post in every debate will be reduced to "Creationist says X" and we're not allowed to confront them on it for fear of being "uncivil".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by Admin, posted 07-25-2011 10:06 AM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 422 by Admin, posted 07-25-2011 11:15 AM Nuggin has responded

    
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