Good Calories, Bad Calories, by Gary Taubes

Hey, good news. Bet it feels good!My willpower is fighting a loosing battle with a desire for certain foods, but still, I'm not doing too bad. The problem with a low carb diet is boredom due to lack of variety.--Percy

Hi Molbiogirl,You're responding to a conversation we were having over three years ago. From what you're saying it sounds like at some point we must have gotten down some rat hole about insulin. Whether Taubes is right or wrong about the underlying mechanisms, the key point is that it is refined carbohydrates that are responsible for the diseases of western civilization, not fat intake.I lost 30 pounds on the low carb diet. The blood tests from my annual physicals always show improved levels of triglycerides and the HDL/LDL ratio. Friends, who I ignored but finally my doctor, said I'd gone too far, so I put 5 pounds back on. But maintaining the lower weight is a pain, you have to continue dieting just to stay in the same place. A low carb diet is very uninteresting, so I go off it many weekends and then return to it during the week. Going up and down a couple pounds every week or two feels like a miniature version of the more long term weight yo-yo that many people go through and may not be healthy, but I hope it's healthier than being 25 pounds overweight.--Percy

A more complete statement of what I think you're trying to say is that Taubes misinterprets the research he thinks supports his position that it is carbohydrates and not fat that is responsible for the diseases of western civilization (heart disease, obesity and diabetes).The key concern isn't whether Taubes is right or wrong but why we get fat, and more importantly, how to prevent it. The common dietary recommendations of the medical establishment over the past hundred years have a remarkable record of non-success, in my own opinion because they're all what I call "willpower diets." These are diets that work only as long as your willpower holds out. We need medical recommendations that work, or at least explanations that make sense. And above all we need a medical establishment that doesn't blame the victims for their obesity. My test results are much better today than they've ever been, better even than when I was younger and lighter than I am now, yet for decades the medical establishment was telling us that low carb diets were unhealthy. Those opposed to low carb diets need to start saying things that actually turn out to be true before their recommendations can be taken seriously.--Percy

As long as this thread is active again I may as well mention that Taubes has a new book out, Why We Get Fat: And What to Do About It. It's the same material as his earlier book, but written more for the layperson.--Percy

The comments from Guyenet seem to be congruent with PD's comments, but with varying degrees of relevance.--Percy

I'm having trouble following you. Perhaps it would be easier to understand your points if you stated them in your own words and just used Guyenet as a reference. But if PD understands what you're saying then don't worry about me.--Percy

About point 1, you're expending a lot of effort attacking it, but I can't see where PD uses the words "insulin" or "appetite" anywhere recently, and that insulin increases appetite doesn't ring any bells as something Taubes claim, though it's been three years since I read his book.I think you mistake what it is that Taubes is saying that we support. We agree with Taubes that it is increased intake of refined carbohydrates rather than fat that is responsible for problems with obesity. If you want to argue that Taubes is wrong to implicate insulin and that it is instead something else that is responsible, fine, go ahead. But I'm getting the feeling that you disagree with the overall premise about carbohydrates and obesity.--Percy

Hi Molbiogirl,It would be very nice and convenient if it were just a case of calories-in and calories-out, but the evidence suggests it isn't that simple. There are other factors. Even something as simple as when you eat has an influence. The composition of each individual's intestinal flora is a factor. Some people are more efficient at extracting calories from food. Aging is associated with weight gain for most people.Your comments and citations of research seem as full of misrepresentations, misinterpretations, misstatements and errors as last time you were here when you proved pretty convincingly that you couldn't engage in discussion without becoming a bit too emotionally wound up, and you seem unchanged. It's okay to be passionate about what you believe, but you're getting carried away again.--Percy

I won't judge the accuracy, like I said it's been a while since I read the book, but this is at least recognizably along the lines of something Taubes would say. Saying "Insulin increases appetite" is accurate in the same way as "Gasoline causes traffic deaths". No one makes the actual claim that Molbiogirl is putting in Taubes mouth, though she later quotes him accurately: Taubes never says or even suggests anything as simplistic as, "Insulin increases appetite," but it does play a role. Insulin secretion is a response to increasing blood sugar levels, and it plays a key role in metabolizing serum blood sugar, and low blood sugar levels induce a hunger response. But in a normal person's body the mere secretion of insulin to maintain even blood sugar levels isn't causing anyone's appetite to increase.The problem with carbohydrates is that they cause higher serum blood sugar levels than other foods, and this causes a higher insulin response. It is hypothesized that sustained high blood sugar levels and the resulting high insulin levels cause insulin resistance, a condition where it takes ever increasing amounts of insulin to metabolize blood sugar and the body eventually cannot produce enough insulin and requires additional amounts to be prescribed. This is type II diabetes. Low carb diets are often ameliorative to varying degrees.The perverse position that Molbiogirl is taking has her trying to prove that other foods commonly cause as great an insulin response as carbohydrates (some do, most don't, the glycemic index is a pretty fair indicator of insulin response), that insulin doesn't play a role in fat uptake, and that it isn't part of a process affecting hunger. The personal experience I'm sure many of us have had is of eating Chinese food with lots of fried rice and then being hungry again a couple hours later, something that is never true of a steak dinner. Molbiogirl understands this since she recently conceded that low carb diets do seem to be associated with less hunger, but she wants PD and me to defend a position that neither of us have taken, that Taubes is correct to blame insulin. Medical research over the past century has been woeful when it comes to generating dietary recommendations, as witness all the reversals of recommendations about foods like eggs and supplements like vitamin E and so forth, so if Taubes is wrong about insulin he has a lot of company in the entire rest of the medical establishment that has been and still is wrong about so many things regarding diet. As Michael Pollan complains, it has caused many to allow nutrition labels to drive their food decisions when the science behind what many food ingredients do is not solid at this time.Whatever the details of the internal processes behind heart disease, obesity and diabetes, there is a great deal of evidence that carbohydrates, particularly refined carbohydrates, play a key role.--Percy

I don't know what you think you're doing, but "discussing" it definitely is not. I tried discussion with you once before, that was enough for me. What you're doing now is assigning people a simple and extreme position ("That's not Taubes' position. Carbs = obesity. Period." - "Fruit of the poisonous tree. You buy Taubes' argument. Taubes' blames insulin.") and then try to browbeat them into defending things they didn't say.If you'd like to see me calling out all your errors, and you ignoring it, just read back through the old discussion.--Percy

Hi Molbiogirl,If you'd like to have a discussion then I suggest you respond to things I've said instead of demanding I defend the positions you've assigned to me.--Percy

Hi Molbiogirl,What part of "respond to things I've said instead of demanding I defend the positions you've assigned to me" didn't you understand?--Percy

Well, yes, actually, I would like to discuss it, so if you were really interested in discussion then I think that'd be great, but I've seen no indication of that so far. You seem like you're itching for a fight, and the more people express reluctance at getting down into the mud with you the more obnoxious you're getting. PD is going through the same thing I did several years ago and discovering that you just post one misinterpretation or misrepresentation or out-of-context quote after another, and when called on it you just ignore it and move on to the next. You're a lot like Mazzy, Gish galloping through science you don't understand and impossible to discuss with while berating your opponents all the way.--Percy

Really? Check page xx.--Percy

I repeat, what part of "respond to things I've said instead of demanding I defend the positions you've assigned to me" didn't you understand?--Percy