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Author Topic:   Good Calories, Bad Calories, by Gary Taubes
Percy
Member
Posts: 13054
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 316 of 451 (629233)
08-16-2011 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by molbiogirl
08-16-2011 10:10 AM


Re: Triggers for Fat Storage or Use
molbiogirl writes:

PD & I agree re: Taubes' hypothesis.

1. Insulin increases appetite.
2. Insulin decreases the release of fat from fat cells.
3. Carbohydrates increase body fat.

About point 1, you're expending a lot of effort attacking it, but I can't see where PD uses the words "insulin" or "appetite" anywhere recently, and that insulin increases appetite doesn't ring any bells as something Taubes claim, though it's been three years since I read his book.

I think you mistake what it is that Taubes is saying that we support. We agree with Taubes that it is increased intake of refined carbohydrates rather than fat that is responsible for problems with obesity. If you want to argue that Taubes is wrong to implicate insulin and that it is instead something else that is responsible, fine, go ahead. But I'm getting the feeling that you disagree with the overall premise about carbohydrates and obesity.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by molbiogirl, posted 08-16-2011 10:10 AM molbiogirl has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by Aware Wolf, posted 08-16-2011 2:12 PM Percy has responded
 Message 318 by molbiogirl, posted 08-16-2011 2:36 PM Percy has responded

  
Aware Wolf
Member
Posts: 154
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 02-13-2009


Message 317 of 451 (629234)
08-16-2011 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by Percy
08-16-2011 2:02 PM


Re: Triggers for Fat Storage or Use
For what it's worth, I recently read Why We Get Fat... and I do remember Taubes writing that insulin indirectly increases appetite. His explanation was that high insulin levels in the blood causes the injested calories to be absorbed by fat tissues, leaving less to be available to the rest of the body. This would "starve" the rest of the body, which would trigger an increase in appetite.

I probably mangled all that pretty well, but the gist is close.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Percy, posted 08-16-2011 2:02 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by molbiogirl, posted 08-16-2011 2:38 PM Aware Wolf has responded
 Message 327 by Percy, posted 08-17-2011 6:13 AM Aware Wolf has not yet responded

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 561 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 318 of 451 (629240)
08-16-2011 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by Percy
08-16-2011 2:02 PM


Taubes: All carbs are bad
I've summarized Taubes' thinking accurately.

From GCBC:

This alternative hypothesis of obesity constitutes three distinct propositions. First, as I've said, is the basic proposition that obesity is caused by a regulatory defect in fat metabolism, and so a defect in the distribution of energy rather than an imbalance of energy intake and expenditure. The second is that insulin plays a primary role in this fattening process, and the compensatory behaviors of hunger and lethargy. The third is that carbohydrates, and particularly refined carbohydrates-- and perhaps the fructose content as well, and thus perhaps the amount of sugars consumed-- are the prime suspects in the chronic elevation of insulin; hence, they are the ultimate cause of common obesity.

He condemns all carbs, not just refined. Particularly refined, not only refined.

Guyenet writes:

At this point, I know some people will be insisting that Taubes is talking specifically about refined carbohydrate, not carbohydrate in general. Taubes does repeatedly suggest in both of his books that all carbohydrate is fattening, but he also suggests that refined carbohydrate and sugar are more fattening.

I have yet to mention yet another problem with Taubes' hypothesis.

Protein raises insulin too.

Guyenet writes:

The II is simply a measure of how much eating a food increases insulin, per unit calorie (28). It turns out, it doesn't correspond with the carbohydrate content of the food very well.

Guyenet writes:

In particular, protein-rich foods such as beef can increase insulin secretion as much as certain starch foods such as pasta, or more. High-protein diets, as many of you know, aid with weight loss.

And unrefined carbs raise insulin as much as refined.

Guyenet writes:

The other problem is that refined and unrefined carbohydrates often have a similar II.

These are well established facts. I can post plenty of supporting research.

But I'm getting the feeling that you disagree with the overall premise about carbohydrates and obesity.

His hypothesis is indefensible. I said it 3 years ago, I'll say it again.

He's just another "expert" who decided the fleece the American public with a fad diet.

Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Percy, posted 08-16-2011 2:02 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by Percy, posted 08-16-2011 7:43 PM molbiogirl has responded

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 561 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 319 of 451 (629241)
08-16-2011 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by Aware Wolf
08-16-2011 2:12 PM


Internal starvation
Just an FYI.

While we're on the subject, let's address the idea of "internal starvation". Taubes suggests that people overeat because they can't access their fat stores due to elevated insulin. However, obese people have equal or higher circulating free fatty acids and glucose (22, 23), so how is that possible? It's not. The internal starvation model was interesting at the time it was proposed, however the evidence has refuted it since then. If anything, obesity is a condition of "internal excess". This information is readily available in the scientific literature, and I'm sure the numerous obesity researchers he interviewed would have been happy to explain it to him, so it doesn't make sense that he instead relied on his own speculation here.

The whole post is worth a read.

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/...f-obesity.html#more

Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Aware Wolf, posted 08-16-2011 2:12 PM Aware Wolf has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by Aware Wolf, posted 08-16-2011 4:20 PM molbiogirl has responded

PaulK
Member
Posts: 10724
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 320 of 451 (629244)
08-16-2011 2:51 PM


High fat diet implicated in causing diabetes
Fat 'disrupts sugar sensors causing type 2 diabetes


The result: fat effectively blinded cells to sugar levels in the blood and the mice showed several symptoms of type 2 diabetes.

The same process also took place in samples of human pancreatic cells.


  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 561 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 321 of 451 (629247)
08-16-2011 3:27 PM


Where's the genetic evidence, Taubes?
If, as Taubes suggests, obesity is the result of a defect in fat metabolism (carbs --> insulin --> fat), where's the genetic evidence?

There's plenty of genetic evidence that implicates the leptin signaling pathway in obesity, but nothing re: "obesity and insulin action on fat cells."

Guyenet writes:

There are enough proteins that regulate insulin secretion in the pancreas and insulin signaling in fat cells that one would expect genetic variability in these proteins to turn up if it were an important regulator of fat mass, just as genes that regulate leptin signaling and reward sensitivity turn up in these studies. But this is not observed.

Where are the mutations that support Taube's hypothesis? The variant alleles?

There are over 20 single gene disorders that implicate leptin (which affects the hypothalamus, not adipose tissue). There are lots of alleles that implicate leptin.

Guyenet writes:

Of the numerous common gene variants that have been found to associate with BMI variability, and whose function is known, the large majority are expressed in the brain, particularly the hypothalamus, and some are in the leptin signaling pathway (41, 42).

Taubes even mentions one of the genetic studies which implicate leptin, not insulin.

It's also the system that is mutated in the genetically obese rodents he discusses (2, 3).

He just forgets to mention the leptin!


Aware Wolf
Member
Posts: 154
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 02-13-2009


Message 322 of 451 (629251)
08-16-2011 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 319 by molbiogirl
08-16-2011 2:38 PM


Re: Internal starvation
Yes, I did read Guyenet's post when you first linked to it; I found it very interesting, and frustrating too.

A few months back I read Why We Get Fat... and was impressed enough to make a change to my diet; I now eat significantly less carbs than the typical Westerner. It seemed to "work" for me in that I lost about 5lbs of belly fat (I was already fairly lean; now I've got pretty close to a 6 pack if you squint a bit). I also seemed to get over a problem of occasional gassiness that I had. I was pretty happy with all that, and as a lay person I thought Taubes' arguments sounded pretty "scientific". (yeah, I know how stupid that sounds).

But I have to admit, Guyenet sounds pretty impressive, too. And I already wondered about people like Asians, and also my wife, who seem to eat a high percentage of carbs and stay slim anyways.

But on the other hand, the low carb thing seems to "work" for me...

Ug.

BTW - in my post 317 I wasn't saying Taubes was right, just that he did in fact claim that insulin works to increase appetite, at least indirectly.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by molbiogirl, posted 08-16-2011 2:38 PM molbiogirl has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by molbiogirl, posted 08-16-2011 4:32 PM Aware Wolf has not yet responded
 Message 328 by purpledawn, posted 08-17-2011 6:26 AM Aware Wolf has not yet responded

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 561 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 323 of 451 (629252)
08-16-2011 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by Aware Wolf
08-16-2011 4:20 PM


Re: Internal starvation
I imagine your caloric intake is down. That tends to happen with most this-is-to-blame-so-stop-eating-it diets.

Caveman diet, eat right for your blood type diet, atkins diet, low fat diet, low carb diet, zone diet, south beach diet.
Eat all you want, just don't eat this!

And I didn't think you were advocating Taubes' silliness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Aware Wolf, posted 08-16-2011 4:20 PM Aware Wolf has not yet responded

purpledawn
Member
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 324 of 451 (629258)
08-16-2011 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by molbiogirl
08-16-2011 9:14 AM


Re: Triggers for Fat Storage or Use
quote:
1. He neglected to mention leptin.
Neglecting to mention something isn't mangling a paper. What paper did he mangle concerning leptin?

quote:
2. He neglected to mention 81% carbohydrate intake.
How did he mangle a paper?

quote:
3. He neglected to mention the Pima were lean on a carb diet.
Again you've made no point of what paper he mangled.

Taubes writes:

For perhaps two millennia, the Pima had lived as both hunter-gatherers and agriculturalists. Game was abundant in the region, as were fish and clams in the Gila River. When the Jesuit missionary Eusebio Kino arrived among the Pima in 1787, the tribe was already raising corn and beans on fields irrigated with Gila River water. In the decades that followed, they took to raising cattle, poultry, wheat, melons, and figs. They also ate mesquite beans, the fruit of saguaro cactus, and a mush of what Russell later called "unidentified worms." In 1846, when a U.S. Army battalion passed through Pima lands, the battalion's surgeon John Griffin described the Pima as "sprightly" and in "fine health." He also noted that the Pima had "the greatest abundance of food, and take care of it well, as we saw many of their storehouses full of pumpkins, melons, corn etc."

I see carbs listed (although I don't see processed carbs and sugar mentioned) and that they were considered in good health. What is your issue? The points he is looking at now is the idea that abundance causes obesity or sedentary lifestyle causes obesity.

quote:
You just restate Taubes' erroneous claims. To wit:
In Message 305, I stated: That is not the way I read what Taubes wrote. It was very much about what type of energy enters the body. All calories are not equal.

You quoted my first sentence and said: That's fine. Care to support that bare assertion?

So I quoted from the book where I felt Taubes covered the idea where all calories are not equal and what supported my understanding of what Taubes wrote.

quote:
Either refute the evidence or concede the point.
What point?
Evidence for what?
What do you think I'm arguing? Message 303

What do you think Taubes' central thesis is?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by molbiogirl, posted 08-16-2011 9:14 AM molbiogirl has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by molbiogirl, posted 08-17-2011 9:01 AM purpledawn has responded

purpledawn
Member
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 325 of 451 (629262)
08-16-2011 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by molbiogirl
08-16-2011 11:15 AM


Re: Amylin & insulin decrease appetite
quote:
There are literally dozens of papers. Care to comment?
Comment on what?

I haven't claimed anything concerning insulin.

As I said before, neither you nor Guyenet have provided any quotes (other than that one paragraph) from the book for anyone to follow what your issue is with what Taubes printed in the book.

From what I can tell you and Guyenet are upset because Taubes didn't get specific on a cellular level.

He makes it clear in the book that he is speaking in a more general manner for ease. He didn't write a scientific report. He wrote a book for the public.

When he talks about insulin, I understood that he knew the process was more involved, but he was putting forth the basic idea.

That idea is that processed carbs and sugar cause some people to store too much fat.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by molbiogirl, posted 08-16-2011 11:15 AM molbiogirl has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by molbiogirl, posted 08-17-2011 9:09 AM purpledawn has acknowledged this reply

Percy
Member
Posts: 13054
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 326 of 451 (629297)
08-16-2011 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by molbiogirl
08-16-2011 2:36 PM


Re: Taubes: All carbs are bad
Hi Molbiogirl,

It would be very nice and convenient if it were just a case of calories-in and calories-out, but the evidence suggests it isn't that simple. There are other factors. Even something as simple as when you eat has an influence. The composition of each individual's intestinal flora is a factor. Some people are more efficient at extracting calories from food. Aging is associated with weight gain for most people.

Your comments and citations of research seem as full of misrepresentations, misinterpretations, misstatements and errors as last time you were here when you proved pretty convincingly that you couldn't engage in discussion without becoming a bit too emotionally wound up, and you seem unchanged. It's okay to be passionate about what you believe, but you're getting carried away again.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by molbiogirl, posted 08-16-2011 2:36 PM molbiogirl has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by molbiogirl, posted 08-17-2011 9:12 AM Percy has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 13054
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 327 of 451 (629357)
08-17-2011 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by Aware Wolf
08-16-2011 2:12 PM


Re: Triggers for Fat Storage or Use
Aware Wolf writes:

For what it's worth, I recently read Why We Get Fat... and I do remember Taubes writing that insulin indirectly increases appetite. His explanation was that high insulin levels in the blood causes the injested calories to be absorbed by fat tissues, leaving less to be available to the rest of the body. This would "starve" the rest of the body, which would trigger an increase in appetite.

I won't judge the accuracy, like I said it's been a while since I read the book, but this is at least recognizably along the lines of something Taubes would say. Saying "Insulin increases appetite" is accurate in the same way as "Gasoline causes traffic deaths". No one makes the actual claim that Molbiogirl is putting in Taubes mouth, though she later quotes him accurately:

The second is that insulin plays a primary role in this fattening process, and the compensatory behaviors of hunger and lethargy.

Taubes never says or even suggests anything as simplistic as, "Insulin increases appetite," but it does play a role. Insulin secretion is a response to increasing blood sugar levels, and it plays a key role in metabolizing serum blood sugar, and low blood sugar levels induce a hunger response. But in a normal person's body the mere secretion of insulin to maintain even blood sugar levels isn't causing anyone's appetite to increase.

The problem with carbohydrates is that they cause higher serum blood sugar levels than other foods, and this causes a higher insulin response. It is hypothesized that sustained high blood sugar levels and the resulting high insulin levels cause insulin resistance, a condition where it takes ever increasing amounts of insulin to metabolize blood sugar and the body eventually cannot produce enough insulin and requires additional amounts to be prescribed. This is type II diabetes. Low carb diets are often ameliorative to varying degrees.

The perverse position that Molbiogirl is taking has her trying to prove that other foods commonly cause as great an insulin response as carbohydrates (some do, most don't, the glycemic index is a pretty fair indicator of insulin response), that insulin doesn't play a role in fat uptake, and that it isn't part of a process affecting hunger. The personal experience I'm sure many of us have had is of eating Chinese food with lots of fried rice and then being hungry again a couple hours later, something that is never true of a steak dinner. Molbiogirl understands this since she recently conceded that low carb diets do seem to be associated with less hunger, but she wants PD and me to defend a position that neither of us have taken, that Taubes is correct to blame insulin. Medical research over the past century has been woeful when it comes to generating dietary recommendations, as witness all the reversals of recommendations about foods like eggs and supplements like vitamin E and so forth, so if Taubes is wrong about insulin he has a lot of company in the entire rest of the medical establishment that has been and still is wrong about so many things regarding diet. As Michael Pollan complains, it has caused many to allow nutrition labels to drive their food decisions when the science behind what many food ingredients do is not solid at this time.

Whatever the details of the internal processes behind heart disease, obesity and diabetes, there is a great deal of evidence that carbohydrates, particularly refined carbohydrates, play a key role.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Aware Wolf, posted 08-16-2011 2:12 PM Aware Wolf has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by cavediver, posted 08-17-2011 6:42 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 333 by molbiogirl, posted 08-17-2011 9:29 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 334 by molbiogirl, posted 08-17-2011 9:42 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
purpledawn
Member
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 328 of 451 (629358)
08-17-2011 6:26 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by Aware Wolf
08-16-2011 4:20 PM


Re: Internal starvation
quote:
And I already wondered about people like Asians, and also my wife, who seem to eat a high percentage of carbs and stay slim anyways.

But on the other hand, the low carb thing seems to "work" for me...


Sumo wrestlers work at getting fat.

One thought in my mind concerning the differences between breeds of people is about where groups evolved. Wouldn't they evolve to deal with the food in their environment. Processed carbs haven't been around that long.

Then we look at the US melting pot. Most of us are hybrids. What does that do to our system?

Just more thoughts rumbling around. I'm also looking at the thyroid now. So many pieces to the puzzle.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Aware Wolf, posted 08-16-2011 4:20 PM Aware Wolf has not yet responded

cavediver
Member (Idle past 24 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 329 of 451 (629360)
08-17-2011 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 327 by Percy
08-17-2011 6:13 AM


Re: Triggers for Fat Storage or Use
low carb diets do seem to be associated with less hunger

There's never enough anecdotes and always far too much science, so...

I started a bastardised version of the Dukan Diet back at the end of May. The end result is that I have lost over 20 pounds, and I'm still losing weight despite the fact that I no longer recognise that I'm on the diet. The major factor has been very much reduced hunger. In fact, I'm starting to get a little concerned as I am now approaching 160 pounds and still going down And this is despite eating out regularly, with no restrictions whatsoever. It's just for normal meals, I have cut out most of the carbs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by Percy, posted 08-17-2011 6:13 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by RAZD, posted 08-18-2011 3:16 PM cavediver has not yet responded

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 561 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 330 of 451 (629368)
08-17-2011 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by purpledawn
08-16-2011 5:31 PM


Re: Triggers for Fat Storage or Use
So I quoted from the book where I felt Taubes covered the idea where all calories are not equal and what supported my understanding of what Taubes wrote.

I don't intend to debate Tuabes. I intend to discuss the science underlying his hypiothesis.

Please provide cites to support your argument. Not Taubes' quotes. Cites.

What do you think Taubes' central thesis is?

I've already posted it twice. I've even supplied the original quote from GCBC.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by purpledawn, posted 08-16-2011 5:31 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by purpledawn, posted 08-17-2011 11:37 AM molbiogirl has responded

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