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Author Topic:   Good Calories, Bad Calories, by Gary Taubes
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 331 of 451 (629371)
08-17-2011 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 325 by purpledawn
08-16-2011 6:26 PM


Re: Amylin & insulin decrease appetite
That idea is that processed carbs and sugar cause some people to store too much fat.
As I stated in the last post, I have posted the original GCBC source for Taubes' central thesis.
I haven't claimed anything concerning insulin.
You're arguing Taubes' position on this. Taubes claims it's insulin.
I'll say it again. I care about the underlying science.
Provide the cites to support your argument.
From what I can tell you and Guyenet are upset because Taubes didn't get specific on a cellular level.
Oh. He gets plenty specific. The index is an inch thick, full of cites. Why don't you use the index to support your argument?

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 332 of 451 (629372)
08-17-2011 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 326 by Percy
08-16-2011 7:43 PM


Re: Taubes: All carbs are bad
Your comments and citations of research seem as full of misrepresentations, misinterpretations, misstatements and errors...
If you want to support that with some quotes, I would be more than happy to discuss it.
There are other factors.
That's not Taubes' position. Carbs = obesity. Period.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Percy, posted 08-16-2011 7:43 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by Percy, posted 08-17-2011 10:25 AM molbiogirl has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 333 of 451 (629373)
08-17-2011 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 327 by Percy
08-17-2011 6:13 AM


"Insulin increases appetite."
Taubes never says or even suggests anything as simplistic as, "Insulin increases appetite,"
I suggest you look at his discussion of Wilhelm Falta's work. Chapter 22. Page 379. Taubes noted that injecting insulin increased the appetite specifically for carbs.
Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.
Edited by molbiogirl, : sp

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 334 of 451 (629374)
08-17-2011 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 327 by Percy
08-17-2011 6:13 AM


that insulin doesn't play a role in fat uptake...
I never said insulin doesn't play a role. I said it's not responsible for shutting down the body's ability to release fat from fat cells, which is Taubes' argument. I said it doesn't increase appetite, as Taubes claims.
...but she wants PD and me to defend a position that neither of us have taken, that Taubes is correct to blame insulin.
Fruit of the poisonous tree. You buy Taubes' argument. Taubes' blames insulin.

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 Message 327 by Percy, posted 08-17-2011 6:13 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 335 of 451 (629376)
08-17-2011 10:06 AM


"Insulin increases appetite."
What if It's All Been a Big Fat Lie? - The New York Times
Taube's NYT Magazine article:
Taubes writes:
The science behind the alternative hypothesis can be called Endocrinology 101, which is how it's referred to by David Ludwig, a researcher at Harvard Medical School who runs the pediatric obesity clinic at Children's Hospital Boston, and who prescribes his own version of a carbohydrate-restricted diet to his patients. Endocrinology 101 requires an understanding of how carbohydrates affect insulin and blood sugar and in turn fat metabolism and appetite.
David Ludwig on Endocrinology 101 in the same article:
Ludwig writes:
This, he says, is effectively what happens when we eat carbohydrates...As Ludwig explains, your body effectively thinks it has run out of fuel, but the insulin is still high enough to prevent you from burning your own fat. The result is hunger and a craving for more carbohydrates. It’s another vicious circle, and another situation ripe for obesity.
Taubes' argument: Carbs --> insulin --> increased appetite --> carbs.
Boo yah.

Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 336 of 451 (629379)
08-17-2011 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 332 by molbiogirl
08-17-2011 9:12 AM


Re: Taubes: All carbs are bad
molbiogirl writes:
If you want to support that with some quotes, I would be more than happy to discuss it.
I don't know what you think you're doing, but "discussing" it definitely is not. I tried discussion with you once before, that was enough for me. What you're doing now is assigning people a simple and extreme position ("That's not Taubes' position. Carbs = obesity. Period." - "Fruit of the poisonous tree. You buy Taubes' argument. Taubes' blames insulin.") and then try to browbeat them into defending things they didn't say.
If you'd like to see me calling out all your errors, and you ignoring it, just read back through the old discussion.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by molbiogirl, posted 08-17-2011 9:12 AM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by molbiogirl, posted 08-17-2011 11:16 AM Percy has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 337 of 451 (629384)
08-17-2011 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 336 by Percy
08-17-2011 10:25 AM


Re: Taubes: All carbs are bad
Taubes' position is perfectly clear. Please see 335.
Taubes even has a GCBC chapter called The Carbohydrate Hypothesis II: Insulin!
From the first page of that chapter:
The fact that insulin increase the formation of fat has been obvious
You want to talk about GCBC? Let's talk about what he says. Not what you think he says. And I would the cites that support any Taubes' quotes you choose to use.
Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by Percy, posted 08-17-2011 10:25 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by Percy, posted 08-17-2011 11:29 AM molbiogirl has replied
 Message 344 by purpledawn, posted 08-17-2011 12:07 PM molbiogirl has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 338 of 451 (629385)
08-17-2011 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 337 by molbiogirl
08-17-2011 11:16 AM


Re: Taubes: All carbs are bad
Hi Molbiogirl,
If you'd like to have a discussion then I suggest you respond to things I've said instead of demanding I defend the positions you've assigned to me.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by molbiogirl, posted 08-17-2011 11:16 AM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by molbiogirl, posted 08-17-2011 11:31 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 340 by molbiogirl, posted 08-17-2011 11:32 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 343 by molbiogirl, posted 08-17-2011 11:53 AM Percy has replied
 Message 347 by Percy, posted 08-17-2011 12:27 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 339 of 451 (629387)
08-17-2011 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 338 by Percy
08-17-2011 11:29 AM


Re: Taubes: All carbs are bad
You said Taubes doesn't claim that insulin causes hunger. He does. Care to discuss Taubes' position re: insulin and hunger?

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 340 of 451 (629388)
08-17-2011 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 338 by Percy
08-17-2011 11:29 AM


Re: Taubes: All carbs are bad
For example. Page 391. GCBC
The insulin forces the accumulation of fat in the fat tissue and the animal overeats to compensate. This research refuted [the] notion that the VMH lesion causes overeating directly

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 341 of 451 (629389)
08-17-2011 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by molbiogirl
08-17-2011 9:01 AM


Re: Triggers for Fat Storage or Use
quote:
I don't intend to debate Tuabes. I intend to discuss the science underlying his hypiothesis.
Please provide cites to support your argument. Not Taubes' quotes. Cites.
Unfortunately for you this is the Book Nook forum and the discussion is about the book.
I didn't bring up any science, I disagreed with the statement that your article made, which had nothing to do with science. If you wanted to debate science then you shouldn't have responded to my post.
quote:
I've already posted it twice. I've even supplied the original quote from GCBC.
The quote you pulled from the article, IMO, is not the central thesis of the book. The paragraph is from Chapter 21 on "The Carbohydrate Hypothesis, I: Fat Metabolism", page 359. He's talking about an alternative hypothesis of obesity that vanished in the 1980's. It isn't his hypothesis. Only the first proposition in the paragraph is what he has said.
quote:
I suggest you look at his discussion of Wilhelm Falta's work. Chapter 22. Page 379. Taubes noted that injecting insulin increased the appetite specifically for carbs. Message 333
On that page, Tabues does not say that insulin increases appetite or that injecting insulin increased the appetite specifically for carbs. He's presenting what others have said.
After the discovery of insulin, Falta reported that giving it to patients would increase their appetite for carbohydrates specifically, and the carbohydrates in turn would stimulate the patient's own insulin production.
Do you disagree with what Falta reported before 1930 or do you feel that Taubes did not summarize the report correctly?
Looking on the internet, I don't see any disagreement that insulin therapy can cause people to gain weight.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by molbiogirl, posted 08-17-2011 9:01 AM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by molbiogirl, posted 08-17-2011 11:41 AM purpledawn has seen this message but not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 342 of 451 (629390)
08-17-2011 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 341 by purpledawn
08-17-2011 11:37 AM


Re: Triggers for Fat Storage or Use
On that page, Tabues does not say that insulin increases appetite or that injecting insulin increased the appetite specifically for carbs. He's presenting what others have said.
Taubes is using research to support his arguments. I have posted 3 instances of his saying insulin increases hunger. If you want to discuss the science underlying his hypothesis (as he does throughout the book) then I am more than willling to discuss the science.
Because that is what the book does. Discuss science.

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 343 of 451 (629392)
08-17-2011 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 338 by Percy
08-17-2011 11:29 AM


Re: Taubes: All carbs are bad
Taubes: All carbs are bad.
P. 394
1. Carbohydrates are singularly responsible for prompting insulin secretion 2. Insulin is singularly responsible for inducing fat accumulation 3. Dietary carbohydrate are required for excess fat accumulation.
Note he doesn’t say refined carbs. Just carbs. In searching Chapter 22 (The Carbohydrate Hypothesis II: Insulin) online, I see that he doesn’t qualify his use of carbohydrate with refined.
In fact, Taubes uses the word refined 86 times. In a 600 page book.
You seem to think that he thinks it's primarily refined carbohydrates responsible for obesity. Would you like to discuss this aspect of his book?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by Percy, posted 08-17-2011 11:29 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by purpledawn, posted 08-17-2011 12:19 PM molbiogirl has replied
 Message 373 by Percy, posted 08-18-2011 9:25 AM molbiogirl has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 344 of 451 (629393)
08-17-2011 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by molbiogirl
08-17-2011 11:16 AM


Re: Taubes: All carbs are bad
quote:
Taubes' position is perfectly clear. Please see 335.
You do realize that page 335 presents a low carb diet as successful don't you?
he whole point of the book is to support the idea of a diet lower in carbs than proteins and fat.
quote:
Taubes even has a GCBC chapter called The Carbohydrate Hypothesis II: Insulin!
From the first page of that chapter:
The fact that insulin increase the formation of fat has been obvious

That isn't a statement by Taubes either. It is part of a quote from Reginald Haist and Charles Best, The Physiological Basis of Medical Practice, 1966.
The fact that insulin increases the formation of fat has been obvious ever since the first emaciated dog or diabetic patient demonstrated a fine pad of adipose tissue, made as a result of treatment with the hormone.
What is your point?
If you disagree with something that Taubes actually said or a conclusion he actually made, why don't you write a clear argument stating your position. You aren't really presenting anything to discuss.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by molbiogirl, posted 08-17-2011 11:16 AM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by molbiogirl, posted 08-17-2011 12:10 PM purpledawn has seen this message but not replied
 Message 348 by molbiogirl, posted 08-17-2011 12:27 PM purpledawn has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 345 of 451 (629394)
08-17-2011 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by purpledawn
08-17-2011 12:07 PM


Re: Taubes: All carbs are bad
That isn't a statement by Taubes either.
As I said before, Taubes is supporting his arguments using published research. Are you denying he is using research to buttress his arguments?
You do realize that page 335 presents a low carb diet as successful don't you?
Message 335.

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