Good Calories, Bad Calories, by Gary Taubes

This from the girl who claims that when Taubes quotes a paper to support his hypothesis, "he didn't say that" so it doesn't count.

Just one more comment.Saying something along the lines of "carbs, but especially refined carbs..." is the same as saying "dogs, but especially golden retrievers...".As I stated earlier, Taubes only bothered to qualify his remarks 86 times in a 600 page book.He can't indicte refined carbohydrates and only refined carbohydrates because his hypothesis rests on insulin. Both refined and unrefined carbs raise insulin levels to a similar degree.

And I'm a very skinny girl who eats nothing but carbs. Sort of like a vegetarian who doesn't really eat vegetables. But that's where personal anecdotes get you. Nowhere near an explanation. I'm itching to discuss the role of insulin, but neither Percy nor PD are interested. It's the lynch pin of Taubes' hypothesis.

I've posted the relevant Taubes quotes. I've posted both Taubes' summary of his hypothesis and a couple of snippets of the research he cites to support his hypothesis. You seem to have a problem with Taubes quotes I post when they are research he is citing to support his hypothesis.Look. I keep asking you for cites. You give me the cites that Taubes uses to support the quotes you post and I'll give you page numbers for the mangled research. Fair enough?If you're interested in discussing the science, so am I. I would like to begin a discussion of the role insulin plays in Taubes' hypothesis. (His hypothesis is nothing without insulin.) I would also like to finish the mangled research thing. Tho, I have to say, you've got the book, PD. You can't flip to the index and look up "Pima"? Or "leptin"? You can't use books.google to find quotes?I would like to add, I am not interested in discussing opinions, gut feelings or anecdotes. At all. Here's a link to Frayn's book. I suggest you go to the source.Metabolic Regulation: A Human Perspective - Keith N. Frayn - Google BooksAnd did you miss this Frayn quote in that post? Frayn might not be the guy to cite to support your argument.

From a science point of view, his hypothesis rests on insulin. If you would like to discuss that, I'm game.

Carb intake has not soared. In 1909, our carb intake was 56% of total caloric intake. In 2005, our carb intake was 54%. USDA ERS - Food Consumption and Nutrient IntakesFat intake has increased (slightly) as a percentage of caloric intake. Not carbs.Caloric intake overall has increased, however. A lot. Page Not Found | USDA

Let's start here.First. The obese have a reduced level of insulin signaling, not more. In obesity, fat tissue is insulin resistant. The same is true of diabetics. This isn't true. In the short term. Not over a 24 hour period. I disagree. As I stated upthread, I am strongly of the opinion that Taubes has not limited his hypothesis to refined carbs. But I'm afraid you and I won't come to an understanding on this point.

I suggest you take a look at this paper. It’s free. Please note that fish and Honeysmacks have similar insulin levels. The same is true of potato chips and apples. Beef and grain bread are virtually identical.Holt SHA, et al. An insulin index of foods: the insulin demand generated by 1000-kJ portions of common foods. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Nov, 1997; 66: 5: 1264-1276http://www.ajcn.org/content/66/5/1264.full.pdfIn fact, 240-calorie servings of cheese, beef and fish elicit greater insulin release than isocaloric servings of pasta and porridge. One of this 86 times he qualifies his remarks.
How do you suppose he accounts for the insulin response to protein and unrefined carbs then?

That's rather like saying: The antivaxers overall hypothesis is that vaccines cause autism. I'm not interested in the underlying hypothesis. The biochemical mechanisms are irrelevant.

I spent yesterday afternoon putting together an insulin post, so I hope you don't mind if I dump it here. Temporarily. For one (maybe two) hours. There is no stockpiling of fat under the influence of insulin.When people are fed high- and low-carb diets of equal caloric content, the differences in lipogenesis are so small as to be meaningless in terms of fat gain (Dyck 2001, Acheson, 2001).Rather than converting the extra carbohydrate to fat and stockpiling it in adipose cells, the body responds to increases in carbohydrate intake by increasing the amount of carbohydrate used as fuel (Hellerstein, 1999). Dyck DJ, et al. Insulin increases FA uptake and esterification but reduces lipid utilization in isolated contracting muscle. American Journal of Physiology — Endocrinology and Metabolism, Sep, 2001; 281 (3): E600-607.

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Acheson KJ, et al. Nutritional influences on lipogenesis and thermogenesis after a carbohydrate meal. American Journal of Physiology — Endocrinology and Metabolism, Jan 1, 1984; 246: E62-E70.

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Hellerstein MK. De novo lipogenesis in humans: metabolic and regulatory aspects. European Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 1999; 53 (Suppl 1): S53-S65.A taste (hah!) of the work cited above. Hill, JO et al. Nutrient balance in humans: effects of diet composition, Am J Clin Nutr. 1991 Jul;54(1):10-7.Furthermore, insulin-blocking drugs do nothing to promote fat loss. Investigators placed overweight and obese subjects on a calorie-restricted diet and randomly assigned them to take the insulin-lowering drug diazoxide or a placebo for eight weeks.There were no differences in weight loss, fat loss, resting energy expenditure or appetite between the two groups (Due, 2007). Due A, et al. No effect of inhibition of insulin secretion by diazoxide on weight loss in hyperinsulinaemic obese subjects during an 8-week weight-loss diet. Diabetes, Obesity and Metabolism, Jul 2007; 9 (4): 566-574.If insulin was the overriding determinant of fat gain and loss, we would logically expect to see differences in fat loss outcomes among dieters with normal and disordered insulin metabolism. But we don’t (McLaughlin, 1999, de Luis, 2006). McLaughlin T, et al. Differences in insulin resistance do not predict weight loss in response to hypocaloric diets in healthy obese women. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, 1999; 84 (2): 578-581.

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de Luis DA, et al. Differences in glycaemic status do not predict weight loss in response to hypocaloric diets in obese patients. Clinical Nutrition, Feb 2006; 25 (1): 117-122.The obese do have a resistance to insulin, but this doesn't lead to fat stockpiling either. Jensen MD et al. Influence of body fat distribution on free fatty acid metabolism in obesity, J Clin Invest. 1989 April; 83(4): 1168—1173

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Roust, LR et al. Postprandial free fatty acid kinetics are abnormal in upper body obesity, Diabetes. 1993 Nov;42(11):1567-73.

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Bjrntorp P et al. Plasma free fatty acid turnover rate in obesity, Acta Med Scand. 1969 Apr;185(4):351-6.So. Is a calorie a calorie or do calories from different sources have different effects? When investigators hospitalized their subjects and gave them controlled diets in which the carbohydrate content varied from zero to 85 percent, and the fat content varied inversely from 85 percent to zero (protein was held steady at 15 percent) the composition of the diet made no difference in maintaining the subjects’ weight (Leibel, 1992). Leibel, R et al. Energy intake required to maintain body weight is not affected by wide variation in diet composition, Am J Clin Nutr February 1992 vol. 55 no. 2 350-355.Energy intake required to maintain body weight is not affected by wide variation in diet composition | The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition | Oxford Academic

From the paper: Oh noes! Eat Right For Your Blood Type is true! It's true!Man oh man, that gives me chills. I spent a good couple of months arguing with an ex about that damn book.Fad diets supported by junk science really get under my skin.

There's a big difference between the mean insulin score for an entire food group and an individual food's score. I suggest you refer to Table 4 for each individual food's score.A first grade class can, as a mean, score average on an exam. That doesn't mean there aren't students that score well above average and well below average.As I mentioned in the previous post, unrefined and refined carbs have very similar insulin scores.From the discussion: Taubes can't confine his hypothesis to refined carbs because the insulin scores of unrefined carbs are just as bad as refined carbs.

Sorry about the delay in my response.We had to put down our beloved Papillon and I am still out of sorts.It'll probably be a few more days.

I'm not trying to "disprove" the claim that refined carbs evoke a greater insulin response than unrefined carbs. I am arguing that refined and unrefined evoke a very similar insulin response.First. You can't argue this: And this: Both white and brown pasta are on your lowest IS list. Either they are refined or unrefined. You can't have it both ways.If you are going to argue that all food that has been processed in any way is "refined" (aka both white and brown pasta/white bread and whole grain bread) then there is nothing on the list that is "unrefined".Refined and unrefined carbs evoke similar responses. Which is why the book is titled "Good Carbs Bad Carbs" not "Refined Carbs Unrefined Carbs".From the discussion: Same carbs, twice the insulin response. Jellybeans = refined. Fruit = unrefined. Little hard to explain that given Taubes' assertion is that it is the carb content and the carb content alone that determines insulin response. (And the insulin response is to blame for weight gain.) Again. A hiccup that Taubes' hypothesis can't explain.And the coup de grace: Protein is insulinogenic. How does that fit in with Taubes' hypothesis? Percy. Look at the data. First, as a group, fruit has an IS mean that is comparable to both carb rich foods and bakery products. Look at Figure 1. Look at the error bars. Second. You neglected to include the error bars when you made your lists.Bananas 81 +/- 5 (aka 76-86)
Grapes 82 +/- 6 (aka 76-88)
French fries 79 +/- 12 (aka 62-91)
Popcorn 61 +/- 14 (aka 47-75)How can grapes be on your list for high IS and popcorn on your list for low IS when the scores are so similar?Where do you draw the line? Beef is 58 +/- 12. That's 46-70. That's awful close to grape territory. Grain bread is 56 +/- 6. That's 50-62. Smack dab in the middle of beef territory. How can you claim that refined carbs are do darn bad when beef is right there in the middle?Remember, 240-calorie servings of cheese, beef and fish elicit greater insulin release than isocaloric servings of pasta and porridge.Lots of foods are insulinogenic. As mentioned above, protein and fat evoke the highest insulin response per gram of carb. Milk is very insulinogenic. As is cocoa powder (no sugar, just the powder).I have a write up of cocoa and milk at work. Irene knocked out the subways yesterday and they aren't back up and running yet ... so I'll have to post that info tomorrow.Refined carbs and unrefined carbs evoke similar insulin responses. Protein and carbs evoke similar insulin responses. Fruit and carbs evoke similar insulin responses. Taubes' hypothesis doesn't take this into account and can't explain it.

Your list is wrong. You can't ignore the error bars. Here's the list, from lowest to highest, with error bars included.Peanuts 20 5 25
All-Bran 32 4 36
Eggs 31 6 37
Porridge 40 4 44
White Pasta 40 5 45
Brown pasta 40 5 45
Muesli 46 5 51
Cheese 45 13 58
Grain bread 56 6 62
Apples 59 4 63
Oranges 60 3 63
Popcorn 54 9 63
Beef 51 16 67
Lentils 58 12 70
Special K 66 5 71
Honeysmacks 67 6 73
Brown rice 62 11 73
Potato chips 61 14 75
Fish 59 18 77
Sustain 71 6 77
Cornflakes 75 8 82
Doughnuts 74 9 83
French fries 74 12 86
Bananas 81 5 86
Grapes 82 6 88
White rice 79 12 91
Croissants 79 14 93
Cake 82 12 94
Crackers 87 12 99
White bread 100 0 100
Ice cream 89 13 102
Cookies 92 15 107
Whole-meal bread 96 12 108
Yoghurt 115 13 128
Potatoes 121 11 132
Mars Bars 122 15 137
Baked beans 120 19 139
Jellybeans 160 16 176 From the wiki article on this paper: The brown pasta/white pasta thing isn't the only problem. And it's not just "one data point".I think you need to read the introduction and the discussion carefully. [qs] (T)he macronutrient composition of foods has relatively [color=red]limited power[/color=red] for predicting the extent of postprandial insulinemia.[/qs]In other words, you can’t predict the insulin response based on carbohydrate content. These findings have been replicated and confirmed. Englyst, K at al. Glycaemic index of cereal products explained by their content of rapidly and slowly available glucose, British Journal of Nutrition (2003), 89, 329—33In other words, the type of carb (rapidly absorbed glucose, slowly absorbed glucose, resistant starch, nonresistant starch) is no more predictive of the insulin response than the % carb content. Percy, you're missing the point. First, look at the corrected list I posted above. Yogurt, potato, beans and candy have the highest IS. If you are arguing that refined carbs have the highest IS, why are beans, potatoes and yogurt 3 out of the top 5?Second, the IS of a food is the IS of a food. If you're going to argue a difference between fructose and glucose, then you need to back that up. Oranges (fructose) and pasta (glucose) have identical IS.If you're going to claim fiber or some other aspect affects the insulin response, you need to back that up. RAG and SAG evoke nearly identical IS.Third, refined carb content is NOT predictive of insulin response. Carbs are all over the map. Grapes (unrefined) and cake (refined) are identical. Brown rice (unrefined) and potato chips (refined). Apples (unrefined) and bread (refined).Third, lots of papers have looked at the LACK of a relationship between carb content and IS. Flint A, et al. The use of glycaemic index tables to predict glycaemic index of composite breakfast meals, British Journal of Nutrition (2004), 91, 979—98.In fact, GI scores have been reported for approximately 1300 foods, but data on insulin levels are limited. But what data there are indicate you can not predict insulin response based on macronutrient content.For example, no one can explain the IS of milk. Hoyt, G et al. Dissociation of the glycaemic and insulinaemic responses to whole and skimmed milk, British Journal of Nutrition (2005), 93, 175—17 Ostman, E et al. Inconsistency between glycemic and insulinemic responses to regular and fermented milk products, Am J Clin Nutr (2001) 74, 96 — 100.Milk is unrefined. And yet it evokes a huge IS, six times what you would expect, way out of proportion to its carb content.Cocoa is insulinogenic too. Brand-Miller J, et al. Cocoa Powder Increases Postprandial Insulinemia in Lean Young Adults, The American Society for Nutritional Sciences J. Nutr. 133:3149-3152, October 2003.There is a disconnect between the GI and the IS. The GI is not predictive of the IS. (In other words, this disconnect between the GI and the IS shows AGAIN that the carb content is not predictive of the insulin response.) Oku, T et al. Consideration of the validity of glycemic index using blood glucose and insulin levels and breath hydrogen excretion in healthy subjects, International Journal of Diabetes Mellitus Volume 2, Issue 2, August 2010, Pages 88-94You can ignore the data on protein all you want, Percy, but the fact remains that both beef and fish stimulate a high insulin response. Right up there with Honeysmacks. No it isn't, Percy. Taubes spends over 600 pages trying to establish a link between carbs and insulin and then a link between insulin and weight gain.But to again address your point that refined v. unrefined carbs have differing IS. There are 137 cites for the Holt paper. 27 support the findings that insulin scores/glycemic responses for refined and unrefined carbs are identical/very similar.For example, these 4 papers showed that white and whole-meal breads showed similar glycemic responses both in healthy volunteers (Jenkins, 1981; Lilje, 1992) and in diabetics (Heinonen, 1985; Jenkins, 1983).Jenkins DJA, et al. Lack of effect of refining on the glycemic response to cereals. Diabetes Care 1981;4:509—13.Liljeberg H, et al. Metabolic responses to starch in bread containing intact kernels versus milled flour. Eur J Clin Nutr 1992;46:561—75.Heinonen L, et al. The effect of different types of Finnish bread on postprandial glucose response in diabetic patients. Hum Nutr Appl Nutr 1985;39:108—13.Jenkins DJA, Wolever TMS, Jenkins AL, Lee R, Wong GS, Josse RG. Glycemic response to wheat products: reduced response to pasta but no effect of fiber. Diabetes Care 1983;6:155—9.You catch the last half of that last title? NO EFFECT OF FIBER. C'mon, Percy. The title of chapter 22 is The Carbohydrate Hypothesis: Insulin. That's called the GI. And, as I've shown above, there is a huge disconnect between the IS and the GI. The GI is not predictive of the IS. Funny. Researchers disagree. No effect of fiber. RAG and SAG similar IS. Disconnect between GI and IS.If you'd like, I can compile a list of the papers that show glucose load is not predictive of insulin levels. A list of the papers that show carb content is not predictive of IS. A list of the papers that show type of carb is not predictive of IS.How about you show me the data that support your contention that type of carb is predictive of IS?Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.