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Author Topic:   Dog piling
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 76 of 89 (621650)
06-27-2011 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Chuck77
06-25-2011 1:24 AM


I would also like to add to what Taq had said concerning Dog Piling. It was a well thought out comment.
If this was so perhaps you could have responded with a well thought out comment of your own instead of mocking my own.
For example, " Where did Cain's wife come from if they were all related" is a very easy to understand argument. Irreducible complexity, specified complexity , and The design inference is not easy to understand, much less how humans fit into these classifications and how Creationism produces these relationships. We are asking evolutionsists to move away from something that is easy to understand to something that is, at first glance, impossible to understand. Dog piling only worsens the problem.
Actually, I tend to point to transitional fossils and genetic markers to demonstrate shared ancestry between humans and other apes. I really don't see biblical semantics as a refutation of creationism. Also, I have yet to see any creationist attempt to related ID and CSI to cladistics and the nested hierarchy of life. If anything, creationists ignore this evidence.
So even in your mocking, you failed to truly understand the issue at hand. If anything, our discussion of geology in other forums is a much better example. In those threads you have humbly noted your lack of knowledge as it relates to geology, and things have gone much better in those threads.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
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Trae
Member (Idle past 4306 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


Message 77 of 89 (621699)
06-28-2011 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by RAZD
06-25-2011 8:37 AM


Re: why dogpiling occurs
RAZD,
I think a couple of those points haven’t really been discussed. I agree that much of dog-piling is the result of the poster (specifically these two):
quote:
Dog piling occurs when a poster makes a number of false\wrong statements, as responders will pick up on different mixes of the statements to attack.
Dog piling also occurs when PRATTs are posted, as more people are familiar with the answers to PRATTs than with the finer points of the science/s involved.
Personally, I’d rather see moderator tools which lock people into responding to thread replies before starting new lines of dialog. Course that would require a rewrite of the forum software and I can’t think of seeing such a system anywhere else. To help visualize, it would be along the lines of a feature where the moderator asks a person to respond to a specific question and the person is barred from participating in the thread until they do so.
It seems to me that with this discussion that some sort of mini-comments feature might be helpful. Stackoverflow.com has some interesting approaches one of which allows other members to place comments on posts. I could see something along this line as a way to point out fallacies, other threads, off-topic, casual comments not worth an entire post, etc.
quote:
stackoverflow.com
2
For claim_id = 405, cycle id = 3. This doesn't match your written logic — gbn 20 hours ago
3
And what have you written so far? Or are you just asking us to write your sql for you? — The Evil Greebo 20 hours ago
1
Where is your SQL statement? What have you tried so far? — LittleBobbyTables 20 hours ago
yes i tried something below but doesnt work: select * from table where cycle= case when cycle = 1 and first_rank='0-13' then 1 when cycle = 1 and first_rank<>'0-13' and Second_date is not null then 1 when cycle = 1 and first_rank<>'0-13' and Second_date is null then '2' end — Punia 20 hours ago
Is this homework? — Brian Dishaw 19 hours ago
add / show 1 more comment

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by RAZD, posted 06-25-2011 8:37 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by RAZD, posted 07-05-2011 9:35 PM Trae has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 78 of 89 (621723)
06-28-2011 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Buzsaw
06-23-2011 9:55 PM


Re: Pack's Perspective Prevails, Period
Hi Buzz, just thought I'd pile on to this reply.
When you do science it's like taking a driving test. You have a way of passing the test and that is by doing all of the maneovers correctly: if you do you can call yourself a legal driver.
The same is true with doing science. You have to do it the right way or you are doing it wrong.
You may not agree that the scienctific method is the best way to understand the universe but the scientific method is like the 'passing the driving test method'.
One can't fail a driving test and then seek to redefine the rules of the test so that you can pass.
That's cheating.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 79 of 89 (622669)
07-05-2011 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Trae
06-28-2011 7:49 AM


Re: why dogpiling occurs
Hi Trae,
It seems to me that with this discussion that some sort of mini-comments feature might be helpful. Stackoverflow.com has some interesting approaches one of which allows other members to place comments on posts. I could see something along this line as a way to point out fallacies, other threads, off-topic, casual comments not worth an entire post, etc.
Interesting idea. Notification could be like Facebook (qwrtl has commented on your post) and the comments could be inserted\done like footnotes and shown at the end of the post. Should they be limited in length?
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Trae, posted 06-28-2011 7:49 AM Trae has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Trae, posted 07-27-2011 1:16 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 80 of 89 (622674)
07-05-2011 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Chuck77
06-27-2011 1:18 AM


Re: why dogpiling occurs
Chuck77
See Message 127 of Irreducible Complexity, Information Loss and Barry Hall's experiments.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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Trae
Member (Idle past 4306 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


Message 81 of 89 (626076)
07-27-2011 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by RAZD
07-05-2011 9:35 PM


Re: why dogpiling occurs
Interesting idea. Notification could be like Facebook (qwrtl has commented on your post) and the comments could be inserted\done like footnotes and shown at the end of the post. Should they be limited in length?
I don’t know about size. Seems at some point the person would have exceeded a comment. Could go with the twitter limit to start with (though perhaps not counting links would be nice).
Stackoverflow.com has these guidelines. Not that all make sense over here. Of course they’re more of a question and answer site: Forbidden - Stack Exchange
I notice they have a cool feature where you can sort of page a single person other than the person you’re commenting on.
quote:
The following community members will be automatically notified of your comment:
the owner of the post you're commenting on
one additional user when your comment contains a @username1 reply
That seems kinda cool. Would let you do things like:
@Razd Perhaps Razd will see this and reply.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by RAZD, posted 07-05-2011 9:35 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by RAZD, posted 07-30-2011 4:49 PM Trae has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 82 of 89 (626629)
07-30-2011 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Trae
07-27-2011 1:16 AM


Re: why dogpiling occurs
Hi Trae,
That seems kinda cool. Would let you do things like:
@Razd Perhaps Razd will see this and reply.
That would be cool.
But it doesn't solve dogpiling, and may contribute by asking more people to participate. The plus is that, done properly, this would mean "paging" the local expert on the topic at hand rather than have a bunch of answers from others.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Trae, posted 07-27-2011 1:16 AM Trae has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Trae, posted 08-01-2011 2:16 AM RAZD has replied

  
Trae
Member (Idle past 4306 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


(1)
Message 83 of 89 (626966)
08-01-2011 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by RAZD
07-30-2011 4:49 PM


Re: why dogpiling occurs
That was my point. That you could comment to summon an expert. You could also comment to point out dogpiling, but perhaps, comments themselves could provide an outlet to dogpiling that wouldn't impact threads and poster to the same extent.
For instance, some comments could be hardcoded. If fallacies are hardcoded, then those comments work more like votes then post.
>>12 people view this post as containing a strawman fallacy.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by RAZD, posted 08-01-2011 8:16 AM Trae has replied
 Message 86 by Nuggin, posted 08-02-2011 4:05 AM Trae has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 84 of 89 (626986)
08-01-2011 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Trae
08-01-2011 2:16 AM


Re: why dogpiling occurs
Hi Trae
>>12 people view this post as containing a strawman fallacy.
Wonder if that could be worked into where the (new revised updated improved?) rating system is (perhaps listing reasons for likes\dislikes)
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Trae, posted 08-01-2011 2:16 AM Trae has replied

Replies to this message:
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Trae
Member (Idle past 4306 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


Message 85 of 89 (627304)
08-02-2011 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by RAZD
08-01-2011 8:16 AM


Re: why dogpiling occurs
I think it could, my suggestion would be to collapse that type of information into a summary and only expand the summary if someone bothers to drill down for the information.
Not all information would need to be negative. There could be positive feedback as well.
Edited by Trae, : added note on positive feedback.

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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2493 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


(1)
Message 86 of 89 (627329)
08-02-2011 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Trae
08-01-2011 2:16 AM


Re: why dogpiling occurs
That was my point. That you could comment to summon an expert. You could also comment to point out dogpiling, but perhaps, comments themselves could provide an outlet to dogpiling that wouldn't impact threads and poster to the same extent.
For instance, some comments could be hardcoded. If fallacies are hardcoded, then those comments work more like votes then post.
>>12 people view this post as containing a strawman fallacy.
That won't reduce dog piling, it will increase it.
I've seen it over at Topix when they instituted flags for "funny" or "lemon" or whatever.
Creationist one posts this:
"Jesus made the dinosaurs"
Educated person responds:
"That doesn't make any sense, even within the narrow context of your religious belief."
Then 47 Creationists mark the response as "lemon".
Whether or not whatever is being posted is a strawman, you'll see people marking it strawman. Then you have admins trying to go back and correct labels. Then you have people arguing with admins about why it's not a strawman, or why it is a strawman.
Endless.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix *** thingy in quote box.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Trae, posted 08-01-2011 2:16 AM Trae has replied

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Trae
Member (Idle past 4306 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


(1)
Message 87 of 89 (627556)
08-02-2011 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Nuggin
08-02-2011 4:05 AM


Re: why dogpiling occurs
As far as I can tell, dog-piling in the context of this thread is more about being overwhelmed by separate replies which appear to request responses. I don’t see that the board needs to be concerned with dog-piling in the sense of numbers of people who disagree with your post who do not expect or require individual attention. The issue here appears to be respond to these X separate requests and not a ton of people think you’re full of shit.
If Razd, makes a post to some third party, requesting a response, and I post as little as, I’d like to know that as well. Then the person usually feels some pressure to respond to both of us. Even if the response to me is as little as, Read my reply to Razd it takes extra effort. If instead Razd marks a post as a strawman and I click on, ‘I agree’, the OP doesn’t have to respond to me at all. The OP and other forum members can simply see that more than one person seems to think there’s an issue. Since in this context the person doesn’t have to reply to me, and either wouldn’t be able to even if they wished (or would have to go out of their way to include me) this seems clearly to me to be less dog-piling in the sense of overwhelming people with replies.
Allowing people to participate in threads without creating additional work for posters does IMO tend to decrease dog-piling.
I’m using ‘flags’ in the sense that programmers use the term (it is a throwback to when I used to program games and we’d ‘flag’ and item as invisible, or some such), the more correct term today would be ‘properties’.
I’m not familiar with Topix, so way out on a limb I’d say we’re talking about different implementations or perhaps they simply have a poor implementation. There are all manner of ‘voting’ systems. All are not equal. Vote weighting can address some of the issues I think you have.
Educated person responds:
"That doesn't make any sense, even within the narrow context of your religious belief."
Then 47 Creationists mark the response as "lemon".
Isn’t this exactly the system we have currently (replace ‘lemon’ with ‘thumbs down’)?
Not all posters need to have the same privileges, nor does every poster have to add the same weight when voting. If I was redesigning this site software (and no I’m not saying this is either the only way to do this or even that it would be the best) I would seriously consider tracking bias of participants. I agree with you that it seems that much of the ‘voting’ here is political. Perhaps, minimizing the effect of this is something worthwhile.
Whether or not whatever is being posted is a strawman, you'll see people marking it strawman. Then you have admins trying to go back and correct labels. Then you have people arguing with admins about why it's not a strawman, or why it is a strawman.
Outside of style, these forums seem to contain only a handful of features I don’t remember seeing in the mid 1990s. I’m not even sure that the CompuServe forums couldn’t tell you which were direct responses to a post you made. Admins trying to control all forum behavior simply isn’t as needed with some additional programming.
One way to implement better social sites is to use ‘trusted users’. The admins by consensus assign trusted users (this should be done at the category level). Once enough trusted users are found (whatever the programmer sets it to) the rest of the population and the admins themselves are evaluated against the first group. The entire user list is reevaluated at intervals and becomes self-correcting. Consensus of trusted individuals becomes filter for all other votes. In such a system you damage your own ability to impact votes by voting against the trusted users.
In such a system, you can try to argue with the Admins, but since the decisions are more in the hands of the community often they’re just going to tell you to convince the other posters.
As a side note, think of all the cool java script charts that could be implemented in such a system. Tracking change of voting, geography, etc.

This message is a reply to:
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Portillo
Member (Idle past 4161 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 88 of 89 (630903)
08-29-2011 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Straggler
06-06-2011 10:05 AM


Re: "Dog piling"
quote:
Were you thinking of new members Chuck77 and Portillo by any chance?
I dont mind the dog piling. I dont reply to every post anyway because I dont have the time to reply to all of them.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
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trisha 
Suspended Junior Member (Idle past 4592 days)
Posts: 5
Joined: 09-01-2011


Message 89 of 89 (631463)
09-01-2011 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Panda
06-06-2011 9:54 AM


Data freshness requires a refrigeration truck or an expiry time on your cache entry that causes stats to be periodically recalculated. Now, what happens when your cached data expires and a 1000 requests simultaneously try to recalculate the expensive to calculate data? Database load spikes and the world nearly ends. And since memcached operations are not atomic it's possible stale data could be cached and you'll serve stale data. Which kind of defeats of the purpose of taking load off the data while providing accurate data. So, how do you unpile the dogs?
funny photos
Edited by Admin, : Spamify link.

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