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Author Topic:   Good Calories, Bad Calories, by Gary Taubes
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 405 of 451 (631804)
09-03-2011 10:59 AM


Just for your information- As a professional athlete, and someone who knows a fair bit about exercise and nutrition, I can tell you that one of the worst things you can give your body is a big glass of grape or apple juice.
People often give this to children, thinking it is a healthy alternative to the bad sugared soft drinks, but in fact the sugar levels of these juices is so high, that it wreaks havoc with your blood as much or more as the sugared soft drinks (all of which are bad of course-I haven't had even one in twenty some odd years) , as well as disturbing mineral levels and your calcium-phosphorus balance. The human body is not well adapted for taking in that much simple sugar so rapidly. Unfortunately, even so called exotic fruit juice drinks which advertise no added sugar, are generally just loaded with these two high glycemic load juices, with just a pinch of more slowly digested juices.
The choices for the average consumer in America are not very good unfortunately. I believe this to be the single biggest cause of obesity in your country.

Replies to this message:
 Message 406 by Percy, posted 09-03-2011 11:16 AM Bolder-dash has replied
 Message 407 by purpledawn, posted 09-03-2011 11:34 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 408 of 451 (631814)
09-03-2011 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 406 by Percy
09-03-2011 11:16 AM


Well, I have a friend who was a professional rugby player. He is giant specimen of a man, tall, huge chest and arms with barely an ounce of fat on him. His normal eating habits are to eat a large bowl of only fruit for breakfast, another big bowl of fruit for lunch, and he eats only a small dinner of maybe pasta or some fish at night. He is not a fanatic about what he eats by any means, but this is just his preferred habit. He says he rarely feels hungry, could easily skip dinner, and does not seem to lack for any energy-even when he is lifting a lot of weights. He is British.
Also you perhaps know that Chinese eat a great deal more fruit than most westerners. I personally could exist on some grains, soy or almond milk, some bananas, and light servings of vegetables and I won't feel hungry or lethargic. With the amount of exercising I do, the one thing I often feel the need for is something with salt.
I often have thought about how gorillas are able to be so strong, on such a sparse diet.
So what do I personally think about fruit-well, I feel I need some, but not that much. My body quickly tells me when I don't need much more. I believe the more acidic fruits are probably best in moderation (oranges, pineapples), while the blander fruits you could probably eat all day (mild melons, dragon fruits, bananas, papayas).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by Percy, posted 09-03-2011 11:16 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 409 of 451 (631816)
09-03-2011 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by purpledawn
09-03-2011 11:34 AM


Re: Fruit Juice
If you have gone 25 years without soft drinks you have already done really really well.
I personally happen to feel that it is not really necessary to eat large amounts of green vegetables, I think a few small portions are enough. People often feel guilty for not eating enough of these, but a few small portions are enough for most people I think-unless it is just really a food you love. You can get plenty enough energy from grains-as many animals do. Lots of isolated populations of native people exist on very bland diets and do just fine.
Keep up the good work.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by purpledawn, posted 09-03-2011 11:34 AM purpledawn has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by purpledawn, posted 09-03-2011 12:17 PM Bolder-dash has replied

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 410 of 451 (631819)
09-03-2011 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by purpledawn
09-03-2011 11:34 AM


Re: Fruit Juice
Also, I think tomato juice is fine and its benefits far outweigh the small disadvantage of it being in a slightly thinner form. I don't think an eaten tomato is that much different from a shredded and drunk one actually. You lose a lot more when you press an apple than when you press a tomato.
And if you do wish to drink some cider now and again, my one advice is do it on an empty stomach rather than with meals. The excess sugar is not good when mixed with other foods that needs to be digested more slowly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by purpledawn, posted 09-03-2011 11:34 AM purpledawn has not replied

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 412 of 451 (631821)
09-03-2011 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 411 by purpledawn
09-03-2011 12:17 PM


Sure. As long as the cows don't mind that deal, why not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by purpledawn, posted 09-03-2011 12:17 PM purpledawn has not replied

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 413 of 451 (631823)
09-03-2011 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by purpledawn
09-03-2011 11:34 AM


Potatoes
If you want to see a consistent group of extremely fat bellied people, you should see the Russians, many of whom come to southern China beaches in droves during the winters. Their stomachs truly defy explanation as well as gravity. Their giant mass begins from just below the breastbone, all the way to their groins, in a inflated, tremendous ball like sphere, that looks like it will soon send them floating into the troposphere. I say it is because of the potatoes.
I avoid potatoes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by purpledawn, posted 09-03-2011 11:34 AM purpledawn has not replied

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 415 of 451 (631854)
09-03-2011 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 414 by Percy
09-03-2011 2:59 PM


Re: Refined v. unrefined insulin response
I am pretty sure your endocrinologist is not concerned about the protein drinks because of the insulin spikes. I think he is probably more concerned with protein poisoning or some other effects. I think you could make your own simple shakes without using protein powder that would taste a whole lot better and not doing anything suspicious to your body. Bananas, some soymilk, maybe chocolate, a whole cucumber, some peanut butter, some celery, some nut powder-any of those things can make a good shake, and you won't have much issues about sugar spikes, and they taste good-and you are eating the whole food.
I also think one can get a pretty good indication of the glycemic load of something they have eaten by simply monitoring the effects of your body right after you have eaten. If you find that about 20 minutes after you have consumed something-like a bunch of white potatoes for instance, that your head is a little fuzzy or drowsy, if your heart rate increases, and even your skin might feel a little tingly, you know that your insulin levels are see-sawing. If you pay attention to these things after a while you will start to see what causes this the most and at what time of day according to your activity level at that time. A big potato will have more effect on you in this way if you ate it right in the morning then if you did after a long jog in the afternoon-because after the long run your body is looking to refuel itself and the increased activity level will keep the insulin level more stable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by Percy, posted 09-03-2011 2:59 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


(1)
Message 428 of 451 (632686)
09-09-2011 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 426 by Percy
09-09-2011 10:40 AM


Re: It's the psychology
I would add to this, that it is my opinion that it is the refined sugars and the high fructose corn syrups, not the carbohydrates that is really the cause behind the obesity epidemic in America and elsewhere. I attended a meeting of sports industry professionals and they showed a graph of the obesity levels of America overlayed with the amounts of high fructose corn syrups consumed in America over the past 20 years. They were tethered together like handcuffs. 20 years ago no single state in America had a majority of its citizens in the category of obese (according to the recent standards of obesity). Within 10 years you could see the map of America changing, to the current situation in which EVERY state has the majority of their population in the obese category. Every one! It happened in 10 years!
Add to that the fact that the average Chinese consumes larges amounts of rice every day and has done so for decades and centuries(as do the Japanese), and yet the population has never had a weight problem; until this last decade, in which imported America soft drinks, ice cream, and high fructose corn syrup snacks are abundant in every village in the country, and suddenly China is becoming a nation of severely obese young kids.
So is it carbohydrates, or is it the sugar mixed with carbohydrates? I would say almost certainly the latter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 426 by Percy, posted 09-09-2011 10:40 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 429 by Percy, posted 09-09-2011 1:24 PM Bolder-dash has not replied
 Message 430 by crashfrog, posted 09-09-2011 1:29 PM Bolder-dash has replied

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


(1)
Message 432 of 451 (632763)
09-09-2011 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 430 by crashfrog
09-09-2011 1:29 PM


Re: It's the psychology
A few points:
1) I would disagree somewhat that the trend in obesity in America goes back further than 1977. I think it is probably fairer to say that the may have been a slight weight issue in America before that, but not the clinically obese rates of today. As I said, the studies that I saw, which although I don't remember the exact years, was looking at the decades of the eighties and nineties-and there was not one single state that had a majority of its population as obese (and they have even upped the parameters of what they used to call obese). They then showed a decade long diagram of the percentage of obese people in each state. Then is when it all happened-it went from one state, to 5 states, to 18 states, to 30 states, to all fifty states, in just a few short years. There was nothing slow and subtle about the trend from slightly overweight to obese and severely obese.
2) I don't believe it is an issue of calories at all, but rather an issue of mixing very simple sugars with more complex foods. I think they slow and disrupt the metabolism of the entire body such that all of the calories that are consumed are converted quicker into fat than into quicker energy storage. In America these days, those simple sugars are so ubiquitous in so many of your foods. Take a look some time at the number of sweeteners in your average "healthy" energy bar-it unbelievable. There will be high fructose corn syrup, malto-dextrin, maltose, molasses, brown sugar, regular corn syrup, honey, white sugar, and sweetened fruit pieces, brown rice syrup, cane syrup, barely malt, sorbitol...all in one little bar! The makers don't believe it would be sweet enough for Americans if they just added a little honey?
But one has to put most of the blame on your drinks. Go to any seven eleven and try to find an unsweetened soft drink. You will find 480 kinds of sweetened drinks before you find one other than water that isn't. Its what these things are doing to the human metabolism that is causing the great damage. When you mix these together with normal intakes of food you wreak all kinds of problems.
3) I only point out HFCS because it has become so ubiquitous as a flavoring agent in America. I don't necessarily feel that it is so much worse than white sugar on the surface. Although there is some evidence to suggest that by mixing so much sweetened corn products into one's diet that you are making the body develop allergies to foods that are eaten together with the high corn intake, but that is another issue. Soda, with or without the corn syrup will harm your body. It is too thin of a sugar.
Finally regarding the Chinese lifestyle, and the use of the automobile, and the increased consumption of higher calorie food, I don't think this fully explains it. First, the obesity that we are seeing is in the youth populations, not the adult population. For the most part adult Chinese are pretty set in their eating habits and don't consume a lot of overly sweet foods. They do however eat very high calorie foods, much more so than Americans even perhaps. All Chinese dinners are large lavish affairs. Many Americans would never be able to eat the amounts of large pure pork fat dishes that Chinese regularly consume. Children's diets are quite different however. All young children, in both city and rural areas have access to many westernized snack food and drinks-manufactured cheaply here in China. They dominate every small country store.
This phenomenon is not limited to wealthy children in China, it is just as bad or worse in poorer rural areas, where the children buy the cheapest of snacks. A soda costs about 20 cents and a ice cream bar costs even less. They also regularly consume various kinds of milk drinks, which they believe to be healthy for young kids, that are all sweetened with sugar and corn syrup. These are cheap and abundant. And western style bread shops are everywhere in China now, and it is a large part of all young kids diets-a type of cakey sweetened bread made into 300 different shapes, all with the same ingredients.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by crashfrog, posted 09-09-2011 1:29 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 433 by RAZD, posted 09-10-2011 7:56 AM Bolder-dash has not replied
 Message 435 by crashfrog, posted 09-10-2011 11:27 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 436 of 451 (632815)
09-10-2011 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 435 by crashfrog
09-10-2011 11:27 AM


Re: It's the psychology
CF,
You seem to have an almost compulsive need to just somehow feel you are winning an argument, even when you are arguing alone. But since you want an argument so bad-here are a few things you missed:
Artificial sweeteners have the same effect or worse on insulin production. I say it worse because they are tricking your body into believing it is taking in large amounts of sugar, and thus producing an insulin surge, even though there is no actual sugar. Plus diet sodas have been linked to higher risks of heart attacks and strokes. Diet soda is linked to episodes of metabolic syndrome (you can look that up I am sure).
Secondly, yes, Americans were always fat but they are getting fatter faster-I think that is exactly what I said and what those charts show. Look at the increases around 1999, its incredible.
Third, I told you that obesity is on the rise in China, not that it didn't exist at all. Again, where did anything you show contradict that.
Now about honey, here are a few facts you overlooked:
Honey may promote better blood sugar control. Proper fueling of the liver is central to optimal glucose metabolism during sleep and exercise. Honey is the ideal liver fuel because it contains a nearly 1:1 ratio of fructose to glucose. Fructose "unlocks" the enzyme from the liver cell's nucleus that is necessary for the incorporation of glucose into glycogen (the form in which sugar is stored in the liver and muscle cells). An adequate glycogen store in the liver is essential to supply the brain with fuel when we are sleeping and during prolonged exercise. When glycogen stores are insufficient, the brain triggers the release of stress hormonesadrenalin and cortisolin order to convert muscle protein into glucose. Repeated metabolic stress from cortisol produced when less than optimal liver glycogen stores are available during sleep, leads over time, to impaired glucose metabolism, insulin resistance, diabetes, and increased risk for cardiovascular disease and obesity.
Experimental evidence indicates that consumption of honey may improve blood sugar control and insulin sensitivity compared to other sweeteners. The body's tolerance to honey is significantly better than to sucrose or glucose alone. Individuals with greater glucose intolerance (e.g., those with mild diabetes and Type 1 diabetes) showed significantly better tolerance to honey than sucrose. In addition, the antioxidants in honey, which have been shown to reduce oxidative stress, frequently by a larger factor than can be explained by their actual amount, may be beneficial for diabetics and help to improve endothelial function (the function of the cells that make up the lining of our blood vessels) and vascular health.
Oh, and this:
In a year-long animal study comparing the effects of sucrose, honey and a low glycemic index (GI) sugar-free diet, rats on the honey-based diet showed: reduced weight gain and percentage of body fat, decreased anxiety, better spatial recognition memory, improved HDL cholesterol (15-20% higher than rats fed sugar or sucrose diets), improved blood sugar levels (HA1c), and reduced oxidative damage. http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=96
Finally, you are talking about three things that I know much more about than you do, nutrition, health, and China. I won't argue these issues with you, for the same reason that I wouldn't punch a crying toddler in the face-it just seems unfair.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 435 by crashfrog, posted 09-10-2011 11:27 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 440 by crashfrog, posted 09-10-2011 4:07 PM Bolder-dash has replied

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 437 of 451 (632817)
09-10-2011 12:37 PM


Its not about calories
For those who might be thinking that its calories that mean the most, here is another interesting bit of information about weight gain and diet sodas:
""What didn't surprise us was that total soft drink use was linked to overweight and obesity," Fowler tells WebMD. "What was surprising was when we looked at people only drinking diet soft drinks, their risk of obesity was even higher."
In fact, when the researchers took a closer look at their data, they found that nearly all the obesity risk from soft drinks came from diet sodas.
"There was a 41% increase in risk of being overweight for every can or bottle of diet soft drink a person consumes each day," Fowler says."
and
"For regular soft-drink drinkers, the risk of becoming overweight or obese was:
26% for up to 1/2 can each day
30.4% for 1/2 to one can each day
32.8% for 1 to 2 cans each day
47.2% for more than 2 cans each day.
For diet soft-drink drinkers, the risk of becoming overweight or obese was:
36.5% for up to 1/2 can each day
37.5% for 1/2 to one can each day
54.5% for 1 to 2 cans each day
57.1% for more than 2 cans each day.
For each can of diet soft drink consumed each day, a person's risk of obesity went up 41%."
Weight Loss & Diet Plans - Find healthy diet plans and helpful weight loss tools

Replies to this message:
 Message 438 by Percy, posted 09-10-2011 1:40 PM Bolder-dash has not replied
 Message 441 by crashfrog, posted 09-10-2011 4:09 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 443 of 451 (632867)
09-10-2011 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 440 by crashfrog
09-10-2011 4:07 PM


Re: It's the psychology
Human aren't rats...., Correlation is not causality...., there are some adults in China that are obese therefore there is no increasing obesity problem for children in China, Americans have always been fat so any increases in how fast they get fat mean nothing...and on and on you go.
You are going to deflect all results that disagree with you, cherry pick the studies which say what you want, while ignoring all those that don't , create your own new meaning for sentences, and proclaim victory by volumes of keystrokes, and put your fingers in your ear (Did you even read the studies that found artificial sweeteners CAN raise insulin...oh of course you did).
Hmm, where have I seen this before? Oh, I think I remember now, from every post you write!
Hey, can I steal your lines "Correlation is not causality", and "humans aren't rats" to throw out every silly evolution argument you make as well?
Edited by Bolder-dash, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by crashfrog, posted 09-10-2011 4:07 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 444 by crashfrog, posted 09-10-2011 7:58 PM Bolder-dash has replied
 Message 445 by Panda, posted 09-10-2011 8:55 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 446 of 451 (632887)
09-10-2011 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 444 by crashfrog
09-10-2011 7:58 PM


Re: It's the psychology
AN ENTIRE LIFE'S LESSON, BROUGHT TO YOU BY CRASHFROG AND WIKIPEDIA:
You want so so badly to be right, that it seems there are no lengths you wouldn't go to to try hard to prove how correct you are. You even, inexplicably, tried to look up online what the average daily income is for rural people in China, for YOU to try to prove to ME what they consider expensive and not expensive! Perhaps you feel that everything you ever wanted to know about the world can be learned by just typing in a search on Google, and voila, you are an international expert.
Never mind that you don't have the ******* faintest clue about what the average Chinese person does, and nevermind that I work, I play, I shop, I breathe with the average Chinese person, and I understand what they feel, what they do, what the economy is like, and what their habits are...you read some stats online so there you have it. What is the average currency amount that would be appropriate in a lai si pack to a male cousins new born child in Anhui province? Can you please tell me that Crash..because I need your help to understand better.
Did you read this while you were scrambling online to understand the world:
"These numbers are higher than in European countries, while the gross domestic product in China is much lower," said Ding Zongyi, who led the study.
"Only the United States have higher rates," he added.
The Chinese experts looked at 80,000 children from 11 major cities, and found an increase of 156 percent in the numbers of obese children between 1996 and 2006.
Meanwhile, the number of overweight children grew 52 percent.
Is that what is happening to Chinese adults? Same numbers? Please tell me some more observations about life that you read on Wikipedia. Maybe you can tell me how to become a world class athlete by searching on Yahoo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by crashfrog, posted 09-10-2011 7:58 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 447 by crashfrog, posted 09-11-2011 10:46 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

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