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Author Topic:   Importance of Original Sin
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2124 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 14 of 1198 (633178)
09-12-2011 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by hooah212002
09-12-2011 8:54 PM


Re: Enough of this OLD sin, bring me some NEW sin
I think the entire concept of original sin is about the most evil idea ever cooked up in the fevered minds of shamans.
In this I agree with Ayn Rand, who devotes a page or so in Atlas Shrugged to the subject.
Humans need to evolve beyond that type of thinking if we are going to get anywhere.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by hooah212002, posted 09-12-2011 8:54 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2124 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 48 of 1198 (633880)
09-16-2011 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by hooah212002
09-16-2011 10:50 PM


View from the other side
I contributed a post way upthread in which I opined that the concept of original sin is about the most evil idea ever to enter the fevered minds of shamans.
I have yet to see a meaningfulresponse to this opinion.
Is belief such a powerful force that it can't tolerate any dissent? Or are contrary opinions better just ignored?
From my view, the whole idea of "the fall" is religious belief with no empirical evidence to support it. It is worthless and completely evil.
I have seen no evidence presented to challenge this opinion.
Is the belief system surrounding "the fall" not worth defending, or is it only defensible among those who already believe?
I would like to see some evidence for this "fall" which does not rely on religious belief. Is there any such?
If not, why should I accept it?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by hooah212002, posted 09-16-2011 10:50 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by purpledawn, posted 09-17-2011 4:57 AM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2124 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 316 of 1198 (709070)
10-20-2013 10:41 AM


Ayn Rand on original sin
A short part of Ayn Rand's passage on original sin, from Atlas Shrugged:
What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call his Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledgehe acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evilhe became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his laborhe became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desirehe acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joyall the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man’s fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he wasthat robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without lovehe was not man.
—Ayn Rand Lexicon

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by Phat, posted 10-20-2013 12:32 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2124 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 319 of 1198 (709075)
10-20-2013 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by Phat
10-20-2013 12:32 PM


Re: Ayn Rand on original sin
Ayn Rands biggest problem, apart from her atheism, was that she felt that humans--consigned to be all bad, could never then be good again. Among other things the Randroids spout.
I don't see where Rand ever made such claims, certainly not in Atlas Shrugged.
It is religious believers who consider humans to being inherently evil through original sin, a concept which I reject.
Nor do I consider Rand's atheism, based on rationalism, to be a problem.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Phat, posted 10-20-2013 12:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2124 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 345 of 1198 (709227)
10-22-2013 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by jar
10-22-2013 8:21 PM


Re: Enough of this OLD sin, bring me some NEW sin
Consider Coyote from many American Indian mythologies. In that case the biggest difference is that Native Americans saw their mythos as "teaching stories" and never considered them as literal.
In many of those stories Coyote was the favorite character. Think of a cross between a deity and Wiley E. Coyote.
And that is my namesake!

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by jar, posted 10-22-2013 8:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by jar, posted 10-22-2013 8:36 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2124 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 428 of 1198 (710252)
11-03-2013 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 426 by jaywill
11-03-2013 9:18 PM


Redux
I presented an alternate view of the importance of original sin in a previous post:
Message 316
I think it is one of the most evil ideas ever to come from the fevered mind of a shaman.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 426 by jaywill, posted 11-03-2013 9:18 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 430 by jaywill, posted 11-04-2013 9:04 AM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
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