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Author | Topic: Anyone else here in the post-PC era? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dwise1 Member Posts: 5930 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8 |
The only thing I ever tried XP Search for was the only thing anybody would ever try to use it for; that is, I needed to find a file when I remember what I called it, but didn't remember where I saved it. This is apparently something that no version of Windows search has ever been able to do. It's great that XP search could return you a list of every .txt file on your hard drive, but who on Earth gives a fuck about that? OK, now I know that you're just jerking me around! Search approaching and including XP has done that job and done it quite well. That is the feature that I use all the time. And have used for years with no problem outside of when I chose the wrong search parameters, but then that's operator error, not a problem with Search. And if you don't want to search the entire hard drive, then don't tell it to do that! Search is ... was ... extremely useful. You just couldn't figure it out. You just refused to explore the options that it clearly offers you. You couldn't adjust. IOW, your gross mischaracterizations of me are nothing but projections of your own personal flaws.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5930 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8 |
Ctrl-I for "Get Info." Or you could right-click and choose the same option. Command-I on the Mac (all keyboard shortcuts on the Mac are Command-key based.) An easy mnemonic for that is because you wanted to change the info, you needed to get it. Hence, Get Info. Boy, fuck Apple for making that so hard to remember, right? Crash, please stop being such a jerk. Did I say I couldn't find it? No I did not! I did find it and work it out completely on my own by exploring and experimenting. You know, the things that you keep mischaracterizing as being incapable of. The problem was that it was stuck away in a menu which didn't make any sense at the time. And why would I ever hit Command-I on my PC? There is no such key, jerk.
DWise1 writes: Menu option: "Show Duplicates." Then click the track and press "Delete" on your keyboard. I also had a problem with duplicate tracks, but iTunes would refuse to allow me to delete the extra ones. Truly, another completely counter-intuitive violation of established interface guidelines, or something. Crash, please, please, please pull your head out of your ass! Did I find Delete? Yes I did. It was disabled, greyed out. Did I try to press the Delete key? Yes I did and iTunes completely ignored it.
The Mac encourages it. You want to work in a terminal? Open "Terminal", If you didn't have your head so firmly wedged, you would know that I had done precisely that when I fixed my brother-in-law's iMac. Jerk!
DWise1 writes: That is completely untrue. The Mac filesystem is not tied to any application, and the default save folder for all applications in the Mac OS is "Documents", which is exactly what you would expect it would be. This is a bizarre complaint since it's not even close to true. My co-worker whose wife uses a Mac (that little cube, so I'm not sure whether it's OS9 or OSX) has informed me that the file system is ber-weird, no directory structure and each file is tied directly to a specific application. First, the only information I had on what he had encountered was his report of what he had encountered. Second, all you're talking about is OSX. This Mac very likely ran OS9, which does not benefit from having a BSD kernel and a UNIX filesystem. For that matter, all the benefits of a Mac that you offer all depend on OSX. Going with a BSD kernel was the smartest thing that Apple did. Even made it tempting to get one, but then I'd be saddled with a Mac desktop. You say that engineering work can be done on a Mac. Well, maybe now, thanks to BSD. But what about before? All I'd ever seen or heard of a Mac being used for is to run Microsoft Office and do art. I have never seen nor heard of a Mac being used to do engineering or software development work outside of designing Mac apps. Nor have I ever seen a Mac in any engineering environment. Again, maybe that has changed with OSX and BSD, but those are new developments in the Mac.
*Intuitive and polished interface. This is true for the iOS devices, as well. Bullshit! They are no more intuitive than any other GUI interface that's designed well using common user application principles. Every single GUI application has a learning curve, albeit a minimal one if it was designed well. Macs are no exception. The only thing that makes a GUI "intuitive" is that it follows those CUA principles. The problem is when different CUA principles are applied, which . Which steepens the learning curve when moving over to the Mac. Which makes Macs non-intuitive to that person.
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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dwise1 writes: Not "old guy" syndrome at all. Yeah, denial, tried it, doesn't work. Isn't working for Buzsaw, either.
The proposition was that the iPad replaces the PC. You first mentioned the iPad in Message 118:
dwise1 in Message 118 writes: At a recent family gathering, my niece brought her iPad2, which my great-nephew played on most of the time. When my sisters were trying to remember how far they used to travel to bike to our grandparents' in the next town, I suggested we use Google Earth to figure it out, since I had done that before on Google Earth. So my niece downloaded Google Earth onto her iPad2 and we set up to figure it out. OK, where's the tool bar? It doesn't have a tool bar. Where's the main menu? It doesn't have that either. So how are we to get to the Ruler dialog? Try to right-click on that. What do you mean we can't even right-click on anything? Needless to say, we couldn't accomplish anything except to find where she now lives back east so she could show her mom. I had to wait until I got home and could run the real Google Earth to answer the original question (5 miles one way). This sounds like pure "Not what I'm used to," namely "old guy syndrome." If someone somewhere in this thread is arguing that the iPad replaces the PC (i.e., does everything the PC does just as well or at least well enough) then I somehow missed it. Also, you can argue all you like about the inferiority of Apple OS's, but somehow there's a single company beating the entire PC industry's butt that uses only that OS. There are more ways to be productive than just the way you're used to. Apple's persistent 2nd banana status has been due to the greater popularity of the PC platform, which caused much software to be ported to Apples last, if at all, thereby maintaining Apple's 2nd tier status. But much mainstream software has reached a level of maturity where newer versions actually contribute more to confusion than to productivity (akin to your Windows 7 complaints), so software version differences are less a factor now. And much of what people want to do now is on the web, so software availability is also much less an issue. For these reasons Apples should continue to pick up market share against PCs, and the tablet configuration, which Apple should dominate for at least another couple years, should cause total Apples+PC volume sales to begin declining year over year. The problem in microcosm: I use Emacs and find vi (or vim) to be obtuse as an editor. I can't imagine how I could get anything done using vi, which I am occasionally stuck using on some platforms. Vi users feel the same way about Emacs, which has the additionally problem of not being as widely available as vi. But somehow at the end of the day we're all able to get our jobs done, and strangely to me, despite that fact that I know in my soul that Emacs is by far the superior editor allowing me to zip through complex code changes, it doesn't appear to give me a leg up on anyone else. I can't deny the evidence that bottom line productivity measures do not seem to support the contention that Emacs is the superior editor. Same thing for Windows versus Mac/Os. You can complain about Mac's all you like, but the bottom line evidence says they're just as good and that it's just a matter of what you're used to. --Percy
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Taz Member (Idle past 3292 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
dw1 writes:
Who proposes this?
The proposition was that the iPad replaces the PC.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
The problem was that it was stuck away in a menu which didn't make any sense at the time. The menu that it is "stuck away in" is the File menu, which makes sense to me, since it was an operation you wanted to perform on a file. I'm not sure what interface design expectation you think it violates to put file operations in the File menu, could you elaborate?
And why would I ever hit Command-I on my PC? You wouldn't. If you'll take a moment and read more carefully, you'll see that I told you to hit Ctrl-I in iTunes for the PC and Command-I in iTunes for the Mac. Using Control+key shortcuts is a common thing on the PC which I guess I expected you to be familiar with. You're sure you're a PC user?
Did I find Delete? Yes I did. It was disabled, greyed out. Yes, it's greyed out if you don't have anything selected, because iTunes can't read your mind and automagically know what songs you want to delete from your library. You actually have to select one or more of them. There are no other circumstances under which iTunes will grey out the Delete menu item.
If you didn't have your head so firmly wedged, you would know that I had done precisely that when I fixed my brother-in-law's iMac. Right, toolbag, but you act like you uncovered some state secret by doing so. Apple doesn't hide the Terminal; about the only thing they do that could be considered "hiding" it is that it's not present on the Dock by default, but surely that's not a surprise - the vast majority of users aren't going to have any use for the Terminal and are more likely to use it to break something. So the Terminal gets tucked away into the same place all the other apps and utilities go. Finding it there hardly strikes me as an achievement on par with discovering King Solomon's Mines, as you portray it in your dotage.
Second, all you're talking about is OSX. This Mac very likely ran OS9, which does not benefit from having a BSD kernel and a UNIX filesystem. The Mac OS 9 filesystem ("HFS") isn't tied to applications, either. It had somewhat different default behavior in applications when you opened a save dialog - most programs defaulted to their own install directories, but the rigid distinction between application install locations and document locations wasn't something that was common on computers in those days. Contemporary versions of Windows had the same behavior for the most part.
For that matter, all the benefits of a Mac that you offer all depend on OSX. Well, right, but I'm struggling to see the complaint here. Apple doesn't offer any desktop/laptop OS's but Mac OS X, I think they're up to "Lion", now? 10.7 or something? I don't understand what's so surprising about the fact that very old versions of the OS don't include developments that post-date them. You're not going to get all the advantages of the PC in Windows 95, are you?
Which makes Macs non-intuitive to that person. No, it makes it non-familiar. By definition learned behavior isn't "intuition." Intuition is problem-solving that precisely doesn't rely on learned behavior. It's not your "intuition" that makes it harder for you to use a Mac, it's your training in the PC. Your experiences don't reflect on the "intuitiveness" of using a Mac because your experiences aren't a result of your intuition, but your training.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Search approaching and including XP has done that job and done it quite well. In my experience it has not ever done it even once. I don't know what to tell you. I've even had the exact experience you mentioned - started a Search, then manually located the file by inspection, and even as I'm staring right at it, Search has no idea where it is. I don't know if it's index lag or what, but I have not ever had a successful experience using Search in any version of Windows. For what it's worth, it's been rocky in Mac OS X too, with the result that filesystem searching is probably the largest difference between various versions of the Mac OS. (I'm thinking of the misconceived "Sherlock" system, for instance. Oh, you're looking for "Taxes 2003"? Here's everything from Amazon.com about doing taxes.)
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Taz Member (Idle past 3292 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Hey crashfrog and other enthusiasts out there, check the following link out.
http://www.onskreen.com/cornerstone/index.php I've been keeping track of this project for months now. True multi-tasking for android tablets. Their biggest problem right now is to convince manufacturers to include this in their update. Why? Simply because manufacturers and google are not convinced that people would want something like this. Why? Because only productive people would want to see multiple things at once on their screen, and gamers/surfers only want to see one window. Again, this goes back to my point earlier. Too many dumbasses in the world who are willing to pay $500+ for a strictly gaming/surfing device. And those of us who use the tablet for more productive tasks are left with the world asking us why would you want to use the tablet for anything other than gaming and surfing? My ipad 2 owner colleagues still wonders why I'm using a fun and game device for work. They just can't think outside the box for one moment. They can't imagine the tablet being anything other than fun and games. The fact that I haven't touched my laptop for 4 months now is proof enough that my transformer makes my life a lot easier. For once, I'd like to see manufacturers look past these other idiot tablet and ipad owners and see people like me. I have 1 game installed on my transformer. Goddamn idiots and dumbasses keeping me away from onskreen cornerstone. Edited by Taz, : No reason given.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Because only productive people would want to see multiple things at once on their screen, and gamers/surfers only want to see one window. I don't think that's true; surely some people want to watch netflix and see their IM client? Read a book and see Twitter?
The fact that I haven't touched my laptop for 4 months now is proof enough that my transformer makes my life a lot easier. Is it proof, perhaps, that your Transformer is actually a laptop with a detachable keyboard? I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be a wiseass. But it's widely understood that tablets have largely emerged as content consumption devices, because that's what they're good at. You keep saying "productive" and then conflating it with "getting work done." But consuming content is work, too: reading an email, watching a training video, listening to voicemails, viewing charts and tables. Most of what people do at their PC's - even when they're being "productive" - is consuming content, and tablets like the iPad and the Transformer are widely recognized to be better at that - better battery life, more connectivity options, just more portable in general. Authoring content? You've found the tablet that has a particular advantage for the kind of content you author, i.e. highly text-based. Photographers are getting a lot of use out of the iPad - being highly productive - by having a large, color-correct portable screen they can hold in their hand and immediately see the picture they just took. Now that Photoshop runs on the iPad even more are switching. Most of the content that most people create right now is text, but that's getting to be less and less the case and as it does, I think we'll see more and more people discovering their productive capacity on simplified tablets and curated filesystems. (I'm starting to think that the iOS approach makes a lot more sense, because it folds in an understanding of what files actually are, and how we want to use them, instead of naively treating all files the same way.) None of that is to say that you're wrong, or that your colleagues are any less benighted than you say they are. Their devices have a productive capacity that they're not yet discovered, but it's not for want of marketing; Apple's iPad commercials regularly stress that it is a device for both consumption and authoring. Ultimately, the "post-PC" era you're talking about is going to basically be William Gibson's notion in his latest couple of novels - the internet, information, being overlaid onto reality. The 90's notion of meatspace and cyberspace being separate universes connected only at specific junctures - stationary, internet-connected PC's - is coming to an end. That's the post-PC era. Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.
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Larni Member (Idle past 164 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
Too many dumbasses in the world who are willing to pay $500+ for a strictly gaming/surfing device. Hey, whoa there. We also read comics and watch convenient porn. Money well spent.The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer. Moreover that view is a blatantly anti-relativistic one. I'm rather inclined to think that space being relative to time and time relative to location should make such a naive hankering to pin-point an ultimate origin of anything, an aspiration that is not even wrong. Well, Larni, let's say I much better know what I don't want to say than how exactly say what I do.
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Taz Member (Idle past 3292 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
crashfrog writes:
Absolutely. Remember that when I'm at a test site I only carry around the tablet part to look at specs, take notes, etc. Then back at the office I'd click it into the keyboard to type.
Is it proof, perhaps, that your Transformer is actually a laptop with a detachable keyboard? Authoring content? You've found the tablet that has a particular advantage for the kind of content you author, i.e. highly text-based. Photographers are getting a lot of use out of the iPad - being highly productive - by having a large, color-correct portable screen they can hold in their hand and immediately see the picture they just took. Now that Photoshop runs on the iPad even more are switching. Most of the content that most people create right now is text, but that's getting to be less and less the case and as it does, I think we'll see more and more people discovering their productive capacity on simplified tablets and curated filesystems. (I'm starting to think that the iOS approach makes a lot more sense, because it folds in an understanding of what files actually are, and how we want to use them, instead of naively treating all files the same way.)
You're absolutely right. Hence I said before that I believe the ipad has a lot of potential. My complaint is the vast majority of people can't see the ipad or any other tablet as anything other than fun and game. And manufacturers do notice this. Hence cornerstone's trouble with the manufacturers and google. Cornerstone was meant to run with gingerbread back when ginger came out. It got delayed because no manufacturer would host it. So, now that we're in the honeycomb stage, onskreen is having to ask people to give their perspective on on what they would want a multi-window tablet screen for. Since cornerstone can only run if it's integrated into the system, we can't just install an apk file. And onskreen is having a tough time convincing manufacturers that people would want this.
I don't think that's true; surely some people want to watch netflix and see their IM client? Read a book and see Twitter?
That's what you say. Yet again, manufacturers are telling onskreen to ask potential users why they'd want to see multiple windows on their tablet devices. Manufacturers just aren't interested in this feature because they don't think the general populace want this feature.
None of that is to say that you're wrong, or that your colleagues are any less benighted than you say they are.
Well, to be fair, I think the ipad is terrible for what we do. My colleagues got caught up in the fad that apple created. That is their slogan isn't it? The ipad is the only true tablet out there and everything else is just an imitation. But I can see how photographers would want the ipad over something like the transformer. But for those of us who work in a paper hungry field, having the option to type really is much better. Edited by Taz, : No reason given.
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4229 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined: |
ahh 1st strawman then ad hominem.
when logic fails go for the throat, not a bad strategy for a console guy, got it. and he calls me childish. roflmfao Edited by Artemis Entreri, : No reason given.
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4229 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined: |
crashfrog writes: You're really a toolbag. suck my dick bitch. Edited by Artemis Entreri, : No reason given.
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AdminModulous Administrator Posts: 897 Joined:
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suck my dick bitch. I think you and crash have contributed to making this discussion less than civil. Take a couple of days off. For everyone else, I understand that platform/browser/OS/gamer etc discussions are famed for tending towards flamewars as the discussion progresses. I would hope the membership here at EvC could avoid that, but a number of discussions are 'heating up'. Please, take a rhetorical dip in an ice bath and remember that the stakes are really quite low.
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3978 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 7.3 |
crash writes: I think many people don't realize how the operating notion of learning among people our age - try it, if it doesn't work, try something else, use what you learned to try a third thing, and so on - is very much an artifact of the times and in all likelihood, something most of us have learned from video games. I thought you'd enjoy this:
Gamers solve molecular puzzle that baffled scientists quote: I think your point is valid, but I think you ascribe too much to age. Some old-timers developed the same approach long before the advent of video games."The brakes are good, the tires are fair."
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5930 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8 |
DWise1 writes: You wouldn't. If you'll take a moment and read more carefully, you'll see that I told you to hit Ctrl-I in iTunes for the PC and Command-I in iTunes for the Mac. Using Control+key shortcuts is a common thing on the PC which I guess I expected you to be familiar with. You're sure you're a PC user? And why would I ever hit Command-I on my PC? Please pull your head out. How does one go about exploring in a GUI? By going through the menus, not by pressing every single key combination at random -- if you're so freaking brilliant and I'm such an old dullard, why is it that "even I" know that while you're so clueless about it. And why would anyone "intuitively know" to use the Ctrl-I combination without knowing that some key word in the menu option started with "I"? "Properties" would be a much more logical guess in a Windows GUI, not "Info" -- and we are talking about doing this on a PC.
DWise1 writes: Yes, it's greyed out if you don't have anything selected, because iTunes can't read your mind and automagically know what songs you want to delete from your library. You actually have to select one or more of them. Did I find Delete? Yes I did. It was disabled, greyed out. There are no other circumstances under which iTunes will grey out the Delete menu item. Bullshit! I did indeed have items selected for deletion. And I repeatedly deselected and then reselected and still it would not enable Delete. I've been working on a daily basis with a very wide variety of different GUI apps on different OSes including Windows, different Linuxes and the Mac for more than two decades now. I know how to use them and how to approach them and how to figure out problems when the software is working correctly. I know what I am doing. Just because you're clueless ...
Right, toolbag, but you act like you uncovered some state secret by doing so. Apple doesn't hide the Terminal; about the only thing they do that could be considered "hiding" it is that it's not present on the Dock by default, but surely that's not a surprise - the vast majority of users aren't going to have any use for the Terminal and are more likely to use it to break something. So the Terminal gets tucked away into the same place all the other apps and utilities go. Finding it there hardly strikes me as an achievement on par with discovering King Solomon's Mines, as you portray it in your dotage. You completely missed (or avoided) the point, you jerk! You keep mischaracterizing me as clueless and unable to figure out the simplest things about a new GUI. That is complete and utter bullshit! That story demonstrates that your mischaracterization of me is completely and utterly untrue. Face up to that fact! By continuing to mischaracterize me, you are deliberately lying!
DWise1 writes: No, it makes it non-familiar. By definition learned behavior isn't "intuition." Intuition is problem-solving that precisely doesn't rely on learned behavior. Which makes Macs non-intuitive to that person. It's not your "intuition" that makes it harder for you to use a Mac, it's your training in the PC. Your experiences don't reflect on the "intuitiveness" of using a Mac because your experiences aren't a result of your intuition, but your training. The only thing that makes a Mac "intuitive" is familiarity with a Mac ... or with some other GUI. There's a general knowledge from familiarity with any GUI that is transferable to others. For example, there's the trouble call from an older woman whose new computer wouldn't turn on no matter how many times she stepped on the foot-pedal on-switch. She didn't know what the mouse was for and thought it was like the foot pedal on her sewing machine. Now, if she had previously observed somebody using a mouse in the manner in which it is intended, then she would have not made that mistake. When the Mac first came out as the first commercially successful GUI (the Lisa didn't do so well with its $10,000 price tag), it was indeed more intuitive than a command-line-based system like MS-DOS. Not because it was a Mac, but rather because it was GUI-based. Now with so many other OSes also being GUI-based, it can no longer brag about being more intuitive because they're all just as intuitive. Which means that they all present the same problems when someone first approaches one of them. The most basic problem being that of having to figure out "where are they hiding this feature that I need?" The second most basic problem is: "Do they even support the feature that I want to use?" If the designer of the app or OS did not think to include a particular feature, then you'll never be able to find it. No particular GUI-based OS is inherently more or less intuitive than the others. Every one of them has to be learned. Very simple fact of life.
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