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Author Topic:   Does the Darwinian theory require modification or replacement?
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 736 of 760 (625123)
07-21-2011 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 735 by shadow71
07-21-2011 1:22 PM


Re: Natural Engineering
Based on what I have read I believe it shows that the CRISPR System is nonrandom for fitness.
Way to miss the point, no one doubts that the system is beneficial the question is whether any given incorporation by the system is beneficial.
The Wiedenheft paper doesn't seem to be making any new points that I can see. The specificity they are talking about is in the actual operation of the immunity system in defence, i.e. the way already incorporated spacer sequences target their counterparts in the phage genome. they do mention that the sequences incorporate site-specifically within the CRIPSR locus, but I've already said that.
It certainly doesn't counter my point that the sequences themselves which are incorporated seem random.
I really wish you would try and develop an ability to argue in your own words with appropriate links rather than just plonking down badly formatted walls of text you have taken from others.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
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zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 737 of 760 (625360)
07-22-2011 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 730 by zi ko
07-16-2011 11:14 AM


Re: Zi Ko's definition of information
I think you should coherently define information for us or just stop posting here. At the moment you are in three different threads promoting exactly the same nonsense.
As my "theory" coincides completely in its basic aspect regarding information role to evolution process,with Shapiro's 21st cetury evolutin theory, i adress you to his paper for informtion definition and other questions as well. My only additions to his theory, which i confes didn't know when i was forming my "theory", are the ideas of neural system inolvement in the evolutional process and empathy's importance on affecting genome,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 730 by zi ko, posted 07-16-2011 11:14 AM zi ko has not replied

zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 738 of 760 (625361)
07-22-2011 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 734 by Percy
07-17-2011 9:06 PM


Re: Zi Ko's definition of information
zi ko writes:
To me information is what the senses bring in from outside or inside word.
Yes, that's correct, but everything in the universe is exchanging information with everything else all the time, not just with our senses. Light brings information, whether it strikes a leaf or an eye. Sound brings information, whether it causes vibration in a champagne glass or an eardrum. Fumes bring information, whether they react with curing meat or your nose.
.As my "theory" coincides completely in its basic aspect regarding information role to evolution process,with Shapiro's 21st cetury evolutin theory, i adress you to his paper for informtion definition and other questions as well. My only additions to his theory, which i confes didn't know when i was forming my "theory", are the ideas of neural system inolvement in the evolutional process and empathy's importance on affecting genome,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 734 by Percy, posted 07-17-2011 9:06 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 739 by Percy, posted 07-22-2011 5:33 PM zi ko has replied

Percy
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Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 739 of 760 (625366)
07-22-2011 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 738 by zi ko
07-22-2011 3:46 PM


Re: Zi Ko's definition of information
Hi Zi Ko,
To have a discussion you have to respond to what people actually say, but you instead used the same paragraph of text as the response to two different people. It answers the questions of neither but just refers us to Shapiro.
We were talking about Shannon information. You have throughout this thread been arguing that only intelligence can produce information. I provided examples of non-intelligence creating information, and here is that passage again:
Percy in Message 634 writes:
Light brings information, whether it strikes a leaf or an eye. Sound brings information, whether it causes vibration in a champagne glass or an eardrum. Fumes bring information, whether they react with curing meat or your nose.
If you still think that only intelligence can produce information then describe in your own words your definition of information. You can provide a link to Shapiro as a supporting reference. If the Shapiro link is longer than a single page then you'll need to be specific about where the supporting information is.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 738 by zi ko, posted 07-22-2011 3:46 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 741 by zi ko, posted 07-23-2011 7:28 AM Percy has replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 740 of 760 (625373)
07-22-2011 6:19 PM


Moderator Information Alert
I am not moderating this thread, but I am moderating the Information's role in evolution.Should we put it more in the picture? thread. This message is just to alert the participants here that I have asked Zi Ko to confine his discussion of information to that thread. Zi Ko will not be discussing information in this thread anymore.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 741 of 760 (625454)
07-23-2011 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 739 by Percy
07-22-2011 5:33 PM


Re: Zi Ko's definition of information
If you still think that only intelligence can produce information then describe in your own words your definition of information. You can provide a link to Shapiro as a supporting reference
idon't ever remember me sayjng that only intelligence can produce information, not Shapiro either i think.His computer type architexture of cell organisation implies his definition of information. Do i need to say that the meaning i give to the word information is based on the binary system.Of course light ,sound, smell, ect bring information. I don't understand....

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 739 by Percy, posted 07-22-2011 5:33 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 742 by Percy, posted 07-23-2011 7:54 AM zi ko has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 742 of 760 (625456)
07-23-2011 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 741 by zi ko
07-23-2011 7:28 AM


Re: Zi Ko's definition of information
Hi Zi Ko,
Thanks for the response, but discussion of information should move to the Information's role in evolution.Should we put it more in the picture? thread. I'm not a participant over there, so since I won't be able to respond to this message there I should say here that you could be right that you've never claimed that only intelligence can produce information. I may have you confused with Shadow.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 741 by zi ko, posted 07-23-2011 7:28 AM zi ko has not replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2933 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 744 of 760 (636882)
10-11-2011 7:29 PM


Mayr and Darwinian model of evolution
I am reading Ernst Mayr's book "What evolution Is" 2001, and he states in the conclusion of chapt 7 p. 157 Adaptedness and Natural Selection: Anagensis:
"Genetic material (nucleic acids) is constant and impervious to any influence from the environment. No genetic information can be transmitted from proteins to nucleic acids, and so the inheritance of acquired characters is therefdore impossible. This provides an absolute refutation of all Lamarckian theories of evolution. The Darwinian model of evolution, based on random variation and natural selection, explains satisfactorily all phenomena of evolutionary change at the species level, and in particular adaptation."
This to me seems to be statement that the "Central Dogma" is in fact correct and that Shapiro et al. are wrong. Any comments on the accurracy of Mayr's statement?
If he is incorrect doesn't this in fact support this thread?
"Does the Darwinian theory require modification or replacement?"

Replies to this message:
 Message 745 by Percy, posted 10-11-2011 8:15 PM shadow71 has not replied
 Message 746 by Taq, posted 10-12-2011 12:04 PM shadow71 has replied
 Message 750 by Meddle, posted 10-12-2011 10:15 PM shadow71 has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 745 of 760 (636884)
10-11-2011 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 744 by shadow71
10-11-2011 7:29 PM


Re: Mayr and Darwinian model of evolution
shadow71 writes:
I am reading Ernst Mayr's book "What evolution Is"...
That's great. Perhaps you can quote from page 155?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 746 of 760 (636938)
10-12-2011 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 744 by shadow71
10-11-2011 7:29 PM


Re: Mayr and Darwinian model of evolution
Any comments on the accurracy of Mayr's statement?
Not without reading more of the book to understand what he is getting at. Does Mayr deal with transposons, retrotransposons, or the process of mutagenesis at all in the book?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 744 by shadow71, posted 10-11-2011 7:29 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 748 by shadow71, posted 10-12-2011 5:08 PM Taq has not replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 747 of 760 (636939)
10-12-2011 12:08 PM


From Mayr's essay 80 Years of Watching the Evolutionary Scenery (2004):
quote:
By the end of the 1940s the work of the evolutionists was considered to be largely completed, as indicated by the robustness of the Evolutionary Synthesis. But in the ensuing decades, all sorts of things happened that might have had a major impact on the Darwinian paradigm. First came Avery's demonstration that nucleic acids and not proteins are the genetic material. Then in 1953, the discovery of the double helix by Watson and Crick increased the analytical capacity of the geneticists by at least an order of magnitude. Unexpectedly, however, none of these molecular findings necessitated a revision of the Darwinian paradigmnor did the even more drastic genomic revolution that has permitted the analysis of genes down to the last base pair.
From that quote, do you think Mayr is happy with the current Modern Synthesis?

Replies to this message:
 Message 749 by shadow71, posted 10-12-2011 5:11 PM Taq has replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2933 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 748 of 760 (636980)
10-12-2011 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 746 by Taq
10-12-2011 12:04 PM


Re: Mayr and Darwinian model of evolution
Taq writes:
Not without reading more of the book to understand what he is getting at. Does Mayr deal with transposons, retrotransposons, or the process of mutagenesis at all in the book?
He devotes one paragraph to transposable elelments and then suggest the reader confer a genetics textbook for detailed treatment on the manifold manifestations of transposable elements.
He does write at p100 "No selectively valuable contributions are known for any of the TEs."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 746 by Taq, posted 10-12-2011 12:04 PM Taq has not replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2933 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 749 of 760 (636982)
10-12-2011 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 747 by Taq
10-12-2011 12:08 PM


Taq writes:
From that quote, do you think Mayr is happy with the current Modern Synthesis?
yes he seems to be, but is he up to date and correct in that quote?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 747 by Taq, posted 10-12-2011 12:08 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 751 by Taq, posted 10-13-2011 2:47 PM shadow71 has not replied

Meddle
Member (Idle past 1270 days)
Posts: 179
From: Scotland
Joined: 05-08-2006


Message 750 of 760 (637028)
10-12-2011 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 744 by shadow71
10-11-2011 7:29 PM


Re: Mayr and Darwinian model of evolution
If he is incorrect doesn't this in fact support this thread?
"Does the Darwinian theory require modification or replacement?"
That depends, do you think Shapiro or Wright are suggesting that genetic information is being transmitted from proteins to nucleic acid, and if so can you quote the relevant data?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 744 by shadow71, posted 10-11-2011 7:29 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 753 by shadow71, posted 10-13-2011 4:13 PM Meddle has seen this message but not replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 751 of 760 (637121)
10-13-2011 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 749 by shadow71
10-12-2011 5:11 PM


yes he seems to be, but is he up to date and correct in that quote?
Using your argument from authority, it doesn't matter. Mayr is an authority. Period. Therefore, anything he says is gospel, right? Or are you saying that you have a firm enough grasp on the biology to challenge Mayr on this subject? Of course this is just rhetorical given the fact that Mayr passed away a few years back.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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