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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Occupy Wall Street Summations Only
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Author Topic:   Occupy Wall Street
crashfrog
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 151 of 602 (637158)
10-13-2011 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Buzsaw
10-13-2011 9:44 PM


Re: Demand What Of Their Congressman?
We shouldn't welcome illegal anybodies.

Then we should make it legal to come to the US, work here for a season, and then return to Mexico. It's easy to complain about "illegals", but isn't it a problem that there's no legal path for what they want to do? It makes absolutely zero sense to expect someone to spend 10 years and fifteen thousand dollars in order to come here and pick vegetables for six months.

To the extent that illegals are taking permanent residency, it's because we've made crossing the border such an enormous investment that when undocumented workers come here, they feel like they have to stay to make it worth it. If we made the border more porous for temporary workers, they would come, work, and then return to Mexico during the off season.

That would seem to be the best case for everybody - best for them, because they can earn a US wage and then spend it in Mexico, where the dollar is stronger; best for racists like Buz, because they're not here year-round, idle during the off-season, and don't have to employ "coyotes" or engage in drug-smuggling as a side job in order to make the border passage possible; best for the US who continues to be able to rely on the cheap labor we so depend on.

But we should be increasing immigration in general. We have entire cities that are going to shit because nobody lives in them - vacant cities. What use is a vacant city? We should be importing people to live in them. It's better for them and better for us. What on Earth do we think we're running out of in the US that we can't share it with the 80,000 people worldwide who would like to immigrate to the US but aren't allowed to?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Buzsaw, posted 10-13-2011 9:44 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Coyote, posted 10-13-2011 10:55 PM crashfrog has responded

  
Coyote
Member
Posts: 4747
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 152 of 602 (637160)
10-13-2011 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by crashfrog
10-13-2011 9:56 PM


New subtitle
Then we should make it legal to come to the US, work here for a season, and then return to Mexico. It's easy to complain about "illegals", but isn't it a problem that there's no legal path for what they want to do? It makes absolutely zero sense to expect someone to spend 10 years and fifteen thousand dollars in order to come here and pick vegetables for six months.

When I was young I worked in the fields three summers, the first with Braceros, who were guest workers as you describe. They were good folks, hard working, and I liked them very much. The next two years were with locals, and they weren't anywhere near as good.

To the extent that illegals are taking permanent residency, it's because we've made crossing the border such an enormous investment that when undocumented workers come here, they feel like they have to stay to make it worth it. If we made the border more porous for temporary workers, they would come, work, and then return to Mexico during the off season.

That would seem to be the best case for everybody - best for them, because they can earn a US wage and then spend it in Mexico, where the dollar is stronger; best for racists like Buz, because they're not here year-round, idle during the off-season, and don't have to employ "coyotes" or engage in drug-smuggling as a side job in order to make the border passage possible; best for the US who continues to be able to rely on the cheap labor we so depend on.


All true. But for some reason the Bracero program was cancelled.

I have worked (as an archaeologist) with several construction crews in the past few years. Many of the workers were clearly illegal although nobody said a thing. Virtually every one was both a hard worker and a decent person. They will make good citizens, and their children will go to college.

But we should be increasing immigration in general. We have entire cities that are going to shit because nobody lives in them - vacant cities. What use is a vacant city? We should be importing people to live in them. It's better for them and better for us. What on Earth do we think we're running out of in the US that we can't share it with the 80,000 people worldwide who would like to immigrate to the US but aren't allowed to?

80,000 can't be a realistic number. More like 800 million. We have an estimated 10-15% of the population of Mexico here already, and more are coming all the time.

What we need is some control over the situation. We're getting criminals along with the good workers, and that should be corrected.

But we are getting a lot of the best and most ambitious workers from Mexico and points south, and they are going to make solid contributions to our society in due time. As the old saying goes, "The cowards never started and the weak died along the way." We're getting the cream of the crop.

We just need some control over things.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by crashfrog, posted 10-13-2011 9:56 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by crashfrog, posted 10-14-2011 12:18 AM Coyote has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 12831
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


(2)
Message 153 of 602 (637161)
10-13-2011 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Buzsaw
10-13-2011 9:44 PM


Unwelcome
We shouldn't welcome illegal anybodies.

Yeah, that's what they thought in Georgia:

Thanks to the resulting labor shortage, Georgia farmers have been forced to leave millions of dollars’ worth of blueberries, onions, melons and other crops unharvested and rotting in the fields. It has also put state officials into something of a panic at the damage they’ve done to Georgia’s largest industry.

Barely a month ago, you might recall, Gov. Nathan Deal welcomed the TV cameras into his office as he proudly signed HB 87 into law. Two weeks later, with farmers howling, a scrambling Deal ordered a hasty investigation into the impact of the law he had just signed, as if all this had come as quite a surprise to him.

He has also set up a blue ribbon commission to investigate the potential downside of not locking the stable door.

Meanwhile, in Alabama ...

Alabama's new immigration law has already delivered "unintended consequences" across the state, said Agriculture Commissioner John McMillan.

The picking of blueberries, tomatoes and squash largely requires hand labor, McMillan said Monday, and the work is no longer getting done.

McMillan said he recently visited a farmer who has 75 acres of squash in north Jackson County.

"It was just rotting in the fields because he had half the labor," McMillan told The Huntsville Times editorial board. "That's a fact. What I'm telling you is what I've seen."

In related news, the Governor of Alabama is said to be contemplating a crackdown on geese that lay golden eggs. In a terse statement, his office has announced that they are to be "killed".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Buzsaw, posted 10-13-2011 9:44 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by frako, posted 10-14-2011 4:30 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 154 of 602 (637168)
10-14-2011 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Coyote
10-13-2011 10:55 PM


Re: New subtitle
They will make good citizens, and their children will go to college.

Well, but again, who said anything about citizenship? The majority of these workers have no intention of naturalizing in the US. They want to remain Mexicans.

But there's no legal path for someone who wants to come in from Mexico and work for a season, as you point out. I think we agree on that. Whether or not someone who wants to do that becomes a US citizen - I don't so much care about that. We do make it way too hard for people to become citizens, for absolutely no reason.

80,000 can't be a realistic number. More like 800 million.

Well, I was way off, but so are you. The number is actually l165 million:

quote:
Gallup finds the U.S. is clearly the No. 1 desired destination among these potential migrants, with more than 165 million saying they would like to move there, and neighboring Canada is a distant second with 45 million.

http://www.gallup.com/...ng-less-educated-yearn-migrate.aspx

On one hand, that's quite a few people, but on the other hand - cities like Detroit are actually plowing under portions of their city because people don't live there anymore. Really? 165 million people want to move to the US and we can't figure out a way to move them to Detroit?

We're getting criminals along with the good workers, and that should be corrected.

I don't so much care about that, either. There's no evidence that criminals in Mexico - where, frankly, criminals have it pretty good - are eager to flee to a country with functioning governance and criminal justice. There's a reason our criminals try to flee to Mexico; the notion that Mexican criminals would try to flee here is a non-starter for me. I don't know how you'd do point-of-crossing background checks when there's no system in Mexico that could possibly tell you at the border if someone had a criminal record. I think you're handwaving enforcement of something that is going to cost a great, great deal to enforce.

We just need some control over things.

Trying to control the inherently uncontrollable is a recipe for disaster - specifically, it's the recipe for the disastrous and racist immigration policies we have today.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Coyote, posted 10-13-2011 10:55 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Coyote, posted 10-14-2011 12:28 AM crashfrog has responded
 Message 158 by onifre, posted 10-14-2011 7:23 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member
Posts: 4747
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 155 of 602 (637171)
10-14-2011 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by crashfrog
10-14-2011 12:18 AM


Re: New subtitle
Just to address one point:

cities like Detroit are actually plowing under portions of their city because people don't live there anymore. Really? 165 million people want to move to the US and we can't figure out a way to move them to Detroit?

We can't get our own citizens to stay in Detroit, why would you think those moving to the US--who can settle anywhere they want (that is, anywhere there is good work)--would want to settle in Detroit?

They're smarter than that.

Report from the field: Almost all of the (undocumented) workers I've worked with on a lot of construction projects are hard workers and they are here to stay. We're better off having them here, and they'll get legalized somehow. Nobody knows how, but that's what they are counting on. We need that new blood, and they'll be real assets.

And as I said, their children will go to college.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by crashfrog, posted 10-14-2011 12:18 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by crashfrog, posted 10-14-2011 2:35 PM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 12831
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


(2)
Message 156 of 602 (637199)
10-14-2011 3:40 AM



Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by RAZD, posted 10-14-2011 1:27 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2402
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 157 of 602 (637205)
10-14-2011 4:30 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Dr Adequate
10-13-2011 10:56 PM


Re: Unwelcome
redneck reasoning

Those damm migrants are stealing our jobs we should throw them out.

Aaaaa its so nice whitout those migrants around now every us citizen can find a job

You want me to do what???? pick melons and onions !!!!!!!!!!! Get a freaking migrant to do it that aint no work for an American.

Slovenia has its fair share of immigrants both legal and ilegal and i have no desire to throw them out so i can get a job as a house cleaner, ditch digger, trash collector, sewer cleaner or anything similar and mostly those are the jobs they take only a small % of them actually take any worthwhile jobs like nurses or anything similar and virtually none of them take any of the good jobs

Edited by frako, : No reason given.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-13-2011 10:56 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

    
onifre
Member
Posts: 4853
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(2)
Message 158 of 602 (637221)
10-14-2011 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by crashfrog
10-14-2011 12:18 AM


Re: New subtitle
I don't so much care about that, either. There's no evidence that criminals in Mexico - where, frankly, criminals have it pretty good - are eager to flee to a country with functioning governance and criminal justice.

It's not so much the Mexican criminals that are coming in, it's the Salvadorans, Hondurans, Guatemalans, and Nicaraguan gangs using Mexico to get in. Like of course the now famous Mara Salvatrucha - MS 13, who's members are all Central American, but very few Mexicans.

Oddly enough the gang started here in the US, then went to El Salvador, then spread back to the US. And the reasons for wanting to come here, while you make a good point that we have structured law enforcement, is that it helps them not only get street cred for being in the US and hopefully commiting a worthy crime. But their only punishment is usually getting deported only to sneak back in the country.

Mexicans are usually the hard working, hispanic people you find in stereotypical rolls like construction, landscaping, etc. The criminal aspect of immigrants is mostly coming from the other places in Central America but, still using Mexico as their crossover point.

So I have to agree with Coyote that there seriously needs to be some better boarder control. But I also like the idea of letting workers work seasonaly. The problem is, money made in the US is with the intent that most of it will be spent in the US. So I think there will be some issue with them not recirculating the money back into our system and taking it to Mexico. If you can get around that somehow, it's a good idea.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by crashfrog, posted 10-14-2011 12:18 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Buzsaw, posted 10-14-2011 10:51 PM onifre has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 15945
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 159 of 602 (637266)
10-14-2011 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Dr Adequate
10-14-2011 3:40 AM


getting back to the topic ...
Hi all,

The topic is about the OCCUPY WALL STREET protest, and about how wall street policies have affected all our lives ... at our (the 99% of us anyway) loss.

Far Left Side, by Stan Fill

http://www.farleftside.com/...0-14-2011-the-99-per-cent.html

There is a support protest -- Occupy Providence -- here in Rhode Island tomorrow, and if you check your news and are interested there are also protests planned in many other locations (even in europe), so you can probably find one near you.

Enjoy

Edited by Zen Deist, : added


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-14-2011 3:40 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 160 of 602 (637289)
10-14-2011 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Coyote
10-14-2011 12:28 AM


Re: New subtitle
We can't get our own citizens to stay in Detroit, why would you think those moving to the US--who can settle anywhere they want (that is, anywhere there is good work)--would want to settle in Detroit?

Because even Detroit is better than the shitholes they're from.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Coyote, posted 10-14-2011 12:28 AM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2402
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 161 of 602 (637302)
10-14-2011 4:22 PM


Dang these 99% protesters in my country are soft, 2 days of protesting and no worthwhile incidences the only interesting thing was a bit of a push around in-front of a bank cause the bank would not let them read something inside. Hope tomorrows main protest with the 1500 or so cities around the world will yeald some better reading.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

    
Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 162 of 602 (637322)
10-14-2011 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by crashfrog
10-11-2011 12:41 PM


Re: Demand What Of Their Congressman?
crashfrog writes:

LOL! Most Tea Partiers are retired folks on Social Security or on some form of disability - its estimated that as much as 75% of the Tea Party movement is comprised of people on the public dole. In one instance, a Tea Party rally was funded by taxpayers to the tune of $14,000; approximately $2000 for every participant. (As a taxpayer myself: you're welcome.)

I'm one of those Social Security recipients. I, along with most of us paid our dues/taxes for our SS retirement . I paid non-inflated hard earned $$ for 40 years to pay for the pittance of inflated $$ I'm getting back; about enough to keep me from freezing and starvation. Had I been allowed to invest all of this money in money markets, etc, I'd be living on easy street today. I was paying in 25 cent gasoline money and getting back $3.00 gasoline money.

No we seniors, many of whom were Tea Party participants, were not on the public dole. We/they were the cheated ones who were frisked by the government for our hard earned to pay for our own retirement.

What is your source that most were seniors and the figure you cited? Methinks it's a blind assertion.

BTW, Froggie, who's paying the Union workers, their organizers and many of the people who are there spending money, buying food, buying Ipods, phones, tents, etc.

I smell rats here, involving our Organizer In Chief, who saw to it that the workers could get two years $$ from the public dole so as to implement mayhem, chaos and spread anti capitalistic hatred around the nation and the planet?

Our Organizer in Chief is organizing his promised civilian army revolution so as to keep his promise of changing America so as for it to be compatible with he, his close bud, Bill Ayres, violent Weather Underground terrorist, America hater/pastor/former Nation Of Islam member/ bud of Louis Farrakahn, self avowed Communist/socialist, Frank Marshal Davis, etc, etc.

In order to fundamentally transform our nation into what Bill Ayers et al fail to do violently, the Organizer In Chief plans to achieve chaos and mayhem, destroy the American &&, undermine our only ally in the Mid East, Israel and empower the Islamic Brotherhood in nations like Egypt, Labia, (now Sudan) and other nations.

Now our Army is aiding and abetting the ruthless Islamic regime in Sudan who was burning villages, crucifying Christians, burning down the homes of Christians, killing and persecuting Christians to the point that, like now in Egypt, the Christians were forced to organize a resistance to save the lives of their families and avoid being forced to convert to Islam which was why the ruthless regime persecuted them.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by crashfrog, posted 10-11-2011 12:41 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by nwr, posted 10-14-2011 11:39 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 165 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-15-2011 12:34 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
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Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 163 of 602 (637328)
10-14-2011 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by onifre
10-14-2011 7:23 AM


Re: New subtitle
onifre writes:

So I have to agree with Coyote that there seriously needs to be some better boarder control. But I also like the idea of letting workers work seasonaly. The problem is, money made in the US is with the intent that most of it will be spent in the US. So I think there will be some issue with them not recirculating the money back into our system and taking it to Mexico. If you can get around that somehow, it's a good idea.

It used to be back before the hippy sixties before drugs were a significant problem that the places where the migrant workers were employed there were quarters on the property which housed them, where they were fed etc. When their crop picking, etc was done they were loaded on busses and returned to Mexico. Up here in NY some of the old buildings still remain where they stayed while in this region working in the fields. The same was true all over the nation.
Then the government got lax, drugs became a lucrative means of $$ for the ones like you have described. The floodgates, so to speak at the border were opened and they began pouring in, pretty much unchecked until it came to the point where it was apparent that they couldn't be controlled.

IT was back at the time in the decades after the hippy sixties that the government administrations of both parties failed to deal with the ever rising influx of illegals, including the gang members you aptly described and individuals who slipped in to homes and businesses who welcomed them. Some of the ones who came for work ended up helping the drug lords for the $$ offered to them, etc.

In spite of the lower wages immigrants received, due to language issues and lack of education and experience, their income was significantly higher than the what they got in Mexico, which was in so many cases, nothing.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by onifre, posted 10-14-2011 7:23 AM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by onifre, posted 10-15-2011 9:47 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5168
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 164 of 602 (637331)
10-14-2011 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Buzsaw
10-14-2011 8:41 PM


Re: Demand What Of Their Congressman?
Buzsaw writes:
Had I been allowed to invest all of this money in money markets, etc, I'd be living on easy street today.

If you had been allowed to invest this money in the money markets, you would have been ripped of by Bernie Madoff or some other of his ilk, and you would be begging for food handouts at the local soup kitchen.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Buzsaw, posted 10-14-2011 8:41 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 12831
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


(4)
Message 165 of 602 (637336)
10-15-2011 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Buzsaw
10-14-2011 8:41 PM


Re: Demand What Of Their Congressman?
I'm one of those Social Security recipients. I, along with most of us paid our dues/taxes for our SS retirement . I paid non-inflated hard earned $$ for 40 years to pay for the pittance of inflated $$ I'm getting back; about enough to keep me from freezing and starvation. Had I been allowed to invest all of this money in money markets, etc, I'd be living on easy street today. I was paying in 25 cent gasoline money and getting back $3.00 gasoline money.
No we seniors, many of whom were Tea Party participants, were not on the public dole. We/they were the cheated ones who were frisked by the government for our hard earned to pay for our own retirement.

What is your source that most were seniors and the figure you cited? Methinks it's a blind assertion.

BTW, Froggie, who's paying the Union workers, their organizers and many of the people who are there spending money, buying food, buying Ipods, phones, tents, etc.

I smell rats here, involving our Organizer In Chief, who saw to it that the workers could get two years $$ from the public dole so as to implement mayhem, chaos and spread anti capitalistic hatred around the nation and the planet?

Our Organizer in Chief is organizing his promised civilian army revolution so as to keep his promise of changing America so as for it to be compatible with he, his close bud, Bill Ayres, violent Weather Underground terrorist, America hater/pastor/former Nation Of Islam member/ bud of Louis Farrakahn, self avowed Communist/socialist, Frank Marshal Davis, etc, etc.

In order to fundamentally transform our nation into what Bill Ayers et al fail to do violently, the Organizer In Chief plans to achieve chaos and mayhem, destroy the American &&, undermine our only ally in the Mid East, Israel and empower the Islamic Brotherhood in nations like Egypt, Labia, (now Sudan) and other nations.

Now our Army is aiding and abetting the ruthless Islamic regime in Sudan who was burning villages, crucifying Christians, burning down the homes of Christians, killing and persecuting Christians to the point that, like now in Egypt, the Christians were forced to organize a resistance to save the lives of their families and avoid being forced to convert to Islam which was why the ruthless regime persecuted them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Buzsaw, posted 10-14-2011 8:41 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
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