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Author Topic:   Nature's innate intelligence. Does it exist?
Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 31 of 303 (637682)
10-17-2011 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by zi ko
10-17-2011 12:17 PM


Re: innate intelligence
zi ko writes:
I put it in the order the eminent scientist have written it. Don't change please what i have said.
I was not quoting you.
Here it is again:
Hearing: I don’t give it the original meaning of the word (namely, the ability to perceive sound by detecting vibrations through an organ such as the ear. What I really mean is: in response to auditory factors, a naturally inside organism pre-existing mechanism, and by force of chemistry and physics, causes changes in the genome. So I think of it as a mechanism, but not hearing in any traditional sense.
If an animal can hear: why can't cells hear?
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
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zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 32 of 303 (637683)
10-17-2011 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Nuggin
10-17-2011 11:45 AM


Re: innate intelligence
Why not this:
1) Cells exist
2) Cells are exposed to a chemical or mechanical phenomena
3) A reaction occurs resulting in a chemical or mechanical response
No need to attribute the cells with "thinking" at all.
I t could be this way. But you then have to proceed a bit further.
as: chemical and mechanical phenomena from environment can regulate evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Nuggin, posted 10-17-2011 11:45 AM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Nuggin, posted 10-17-2011 1:19 PM zi ko has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 33 of 303 (637688)
10-17-2011 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by zi ko
10-17-2011 12:42 PM


Re: innate intelligence
I t could be this way. But you then have to proceed a bit further.
as: chemical and mechanical phenomena from environment can regulate evolution.
That still would not require intelligence.
For example, if an organism were exposed to some chemical mutagen, the offspring it produced would likely have more mutations than the average offspring of a non-exposed individual.
That doesn't require any thinking on anyone's part. That's the chemical result of the exposure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by zi ko, posted 10-17-2011 12:42 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 34 of 303 (637692)
10-17-2011 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by zi ko
10-14-2011 11:00 AM


zi ko writes:
Life is full of examples showing intelligence.
In the quoted sentence, you mention life. But the topic title seems to apply to all of nature.
Are you only talking about nature as intelligent? Or are you saying that rocks, tides, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc are intelligent. You need to be clear about that.
Most of your posts in this thread seem to be about cells. What's the point of attaching the label "intelligent" to what they do? Surely the goal of science should be to find out what they do, rather than to find excuses to attach ill defined terminology.
zi ko writes:
J. Shapiro talks about such intelligence inside cells.
Yes, he does. But Shapiro isn't all that clear on what he means by "intelligence". In my opinion, some of what Shapiro says is a tad overstated.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 35 of 303 (637693)
10-17-2011 2:07 PM


I think what he is trying to say is that a cell, although it doesn’t have intelligence of its own, (although I don’t know why he started talking about a cell seeing), does have intelligence built into its function.
Here is a definition of innate from the net. Emphasis mine:
Innate
1. existing in one from birth; inborn; native: innate musical talent.
2. inherent in the essential character of something: an innate defect in the hypothesis.
3. originating in or arising from the intellect or the constitution of the mind, rather than learned through experience: an innate knowledge of good and evil.
So, in answer to the title question of whether there exists an innate intelligence in nature, I would have to say yes.
The question that goes beyond this topic is whether or not that innate intelligence evolved from an intelligent or non-intelligent source.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 10-17-2011 5:04 PM GDR has replied
 Message 56 by Larni, posted 10-18-2011 4:08 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 104 by zi ko, posted 10-19-2011 12:49 PM GDR has not replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 36 of 303 (637698)
10-17-2011 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by nwr
10-17-2011 1:47 PM


Are you only talking about nature as intelligent? Or are you saying that rocks, tides, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc are intelligent.
Using the zi ko proof, if man is intelligent why not rocks?

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 303 (637699)
10-17-2011 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Taq
10-17-2011 2:38 PM


Need an example for intelligence?

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 38 of 303 (637729)
10-17-2011 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by GDR
10-17-2011 2:07 PM


I think what he is trying to say is that a cell, although it doesn’t have intelligence of its own, (although I don’t know why he started talking about a cell seeing), does have intelligence built into its function.
What intelligence is built into the function of a cell?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 35 by GDR, posted 10-17-2011 2:07 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by GDR, posted 10-17-2011 8:04 PM jar has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 39 of 303 (637758)
10-17-2011 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by jar
10-17-2011 5:04 PM


jar writes:
What intelligence is built into the function of a cell
Here is a site that talks about it but I suppose it isn't conclusive.
http://www.brianjford.com/a-10-mensamag-cells.pdf
For that matter plant life doesn't have a brain, but the plant turns to the sun, draws mositure from the soil etc.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

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 Message 38 by jar, posted 10-17-2011 5:04 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 10-17-2011 8:15 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 41 by Panda, posted 10-17-2011 8:42 PM GDR has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 40 of 303 (637761)
10-17-2011 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by GDR
10-17-2011 8:04 PM


Too funny.
Sorry but none of that involves intelligence, it is just simple mechanics.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 41 of 303 (637764)
10-17-2011 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by GDR
10-17-2011 8:04 PM


GDR writes:
Here is a site that talks about it but I suppose it isn't conclusive.
The only place that cellular intelligence is mentioned is in the title/heading.
He actually seems to be writing about cellular memory (which I saw best described as "It has not been easy to find any article that either does not condemn the idea as total mumbo jumbo, or, while supporting the ideas, still makes it sound like it is mumbo jumbo.").
But memory is not intelligence - my PC has memory.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by GDR, posted 10-17-2011 8:04 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 42 of 303 (637766)
10-17-2011 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Panda
10-17-2011 8:42 PM


Panda writes:
He actually seems to be writing about cellular memory (which I saw best described as "It has not been easy to find any article that either does not condemn the idea as total mumbo jumbo, or, while supporting the ideas, still makes it sound like it is mumbo jumbo.").
But memory is not intelligence - my PC has memory.
I'm not trying to be clever here, but isn't memory stored intelligence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Panda, posted 10-17-2011 8:42 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Panda, posted 10-17-2011 9:08 PM GDR has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 43 of 303 (637768)
10-17-2011 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by GDR
10-17-2011 8:50 PM


GDR writes:
I'm not trying to be clever here, but isn't memory stored intelligence?
As in 'military intelligence'?
Then yes, memory could be considered to be stored intelligence.
But the document you linked refers to DNA from one human affecting the preferences of another human. (His use of the word 'memory' is kind of metaphorical.)
And the intelligence that Jar was asking about was not (if I understood correctly) intelligence as in news/information.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by GDR, posted 10-17-2011 8:50 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by GDR, posted 10-17-2011 9:31 PM Panda has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 44 of 303 (637771)
10-17-2011 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Panda
10-17-2011 9:08 PM


No I didn't mean intelligence in that sense either. The way I saw it is that IMHO there is information within a cell that causes it to react to certain stimuli.
For example a leaf turning to the sun. It seems to me that stored intelligence such as that would be considered innate intelligence.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Panda, posted 10-17-2011 9:08 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 10-17-2011 9:36 PM GDR has replied
 Message 46 by Panda, posted 10-17-2011 10:10 PM GDR has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 45 of 303 (637772)
10-17-2011 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by GDR
10-17-2011 9:31 PM


what stored intelligence?
For example a leaf turning to the sun. It seems to me that stored intelligence such as that would be considered innate intelligence.
What stored intelligence?
The plant turns towards the sun because of mechanics, no intelligence involved. It is no different than an ice cube melting in the sun.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by GDR, posted 10-17-2011 9:31 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by GDR, posted 10-17-2011 10:11 PM jar has replied

  
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