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Author | Topic: The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: So are we questioning the motives of the teacher/programmer/creator?
The discussion is about what God does, not what the human does.
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Admin Director Posts: 13023 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
60 messages before the thread enters summation mode. Maybe you guys could take the current discussion into PMs, unless you can relate it to the topic.
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Chuck77 writes: This idea used to bother me. How, I wondered, would it even be proper...not to mention possible to question and/or challenge God? Christians don't go around saying we are allowed to judge God like Jar did. Then I thought of an analogy of a martial arts teacher and his student. The teacher has the motivation of always challenging his student to become better and better. Does the student have a right to challenge the teacher? My answer was that if the student ever expects to learn anything he has to challenge someone better than he is, or he himself will never improve. Just because God may set Himself up to be questioned or challenged in no way detracts from His position or ability. In my opinion, the motive would be for the edification and training of the human individual and/or race.
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
This topic is evolving, Percy. If I were required to summarize the entire discussion so far, I would label it as an evolving debate which clarifies or at least showcases my personal beliefs. I am one of the few who enjoys sparring with jar, though he can be anything but polite. I will say that I have advanced my beliefs since starting this thread over two years ago. I suspect, however, that we will end up with a Final Question long before we arrive at any Final Answer.
Add By Edit: For those of you who see jars debating style as brusque , it is probably the reason that Admin censored some of his words. I dont mind him challenging me intellectually and personally, however, so for me brusque is fair cricket. Edited by Phat, : added comment
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Admin Director Posts: 13023 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
Phat writes: This topic is evolving, Percy. That's fine, as long as it is micro-evolution, but it looks like macro-evolution to me. The central issue is whether Christian positions on evolution are driven by willful ignorance.
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Percy writes: Depends whether the position is based on Logic, Reason, and Reality or whether the position is based on a belief and a will to proselytize. The central issue is whether Christian positions on evolution are driven by willful ignorance. Edited by Phat, : changed subtitle
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Phat writes: Percy writes: The central issue is whether Christian positions on evolution are driven by willful ignorance. Depends whether the position is based on Logic, Reason, and Reality or whether the position is based on a belief and a will to proselytize. But don't beliefs and and desire to proselytise essentially lead to the willful ignorance of that which contradicts?
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Straggler writes: But don't beliefs and and desire to proselytise essentially lead to the willful ignorance of that which contradicts? Is the ignorance willful? Perhaps the believer is sincere and fervent. There is no argument that a disagreement exists...as Buzsaw puts it, there is an alternative viewpoint. I suppose the issue is what exactly constitutes willful ignorance as opposed to ignorance or sincere belief in an alternative explanation.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
I would suggest one leads to the other. And I would argue that EvC demonstrates this constantly.
But it depends how you define "willful" I suppose.
Phat writes: I suppose the issue is what exactly constitutes willful ignorance as opposed to ignorance or sincere belief in an alternative explanation. If being willful requires that one NOT believe an opposite then is anyone ever willfully ignorant?
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Jon Inactive Member |
But God cannot know that Its knowledge is so perfect.
Would it be more evil for God to assume It has perfect knowledge and only create heaven-bound folk, thus denying the potential to prove It wrong to all the folk it thinks will be hell-bound; or, for God to simply create all creatures it plans on creating without respect to whether or not It thinks they will be hell- or heaven-bound? Since 'good' and 'evil' are relative terms that only have meaning to moralistic individualsand for humans are even different from one person to the next, I think it is not likely you can define 'God' in such a way that It won't be found evil by someone. You think Phat's God is evil. Phat thinks your God is heartless. But is either of you right? Jon Edited by Jon, : clarityLove your enemies!
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
That's fine but I can't see how any of that has anything to do with what I asked.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: If the God has foreknowledge then that God knows even before that critter is created that that critter will go to hell. Such a God is simply evil. This kinda ties in with your belief that humans were given awareness of good and evil and a charge to do good. I can hardly imagine a scenario whereby my judging God would ever be considered a right move...but I look at God more as a standard of perfection and infinite wisdom rather than a teacher who expects me to challenge Her. About the idea of willful ignorance....is it wrong to hold on to beliefs that seem logically crazy or irrational? For example, saying that God can do whatever God wants to do and that it is always a right move....
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
What does the Bible say?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
It is a given that I prefer fantasy over reality, as do many. My question to you is this: If GOD exists (based on your framework of GOD, God, and god) Is it not quite possible that not very many humans would then like or worship such a Deity? Edited by Phat, : added banner
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
What does it matter?
GOD is, if GOD exists, whatever GOD is. It does not matter whether or not any humans like or worship the critter.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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