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Author Topic:   Nature's innate intelligence. Does it exist?
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 61 of 303 (637870)
10-18-2011 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Straggler
10-18-2011 9:42 AM


Re: Devils Advocate...
Straggler writes:
Are brain cells any different to what you have described above? Don't they obey the laws of physics? Can they behave in any other way?
In my honest (but uneducated) opinion: No - the brain cells are no different. They are affected by external inputs, but ultimately they will always respond in exactly the same way to the exact same stimuli.
If I was to kick you, your response is already established in your brain.
(I realised while writing my previous posts that there was a thin line between the bio-chemical machine that is a plant and the bio-chemical machine that is a human. The main difference I saw was the brain's cognitive abilities.)
Straggler writes:
If NOT being restricted by these things is the criteria for "intelligence" then can we really say that our brains, and thus we, are "intelligent"....?
Not being restricted by those things is not the criteria for intelligence.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2011 9:42 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2011 11:27 AM Panda has replied
 Message 69 by GDR, posted 10-18-2011 1:48 PM Panda has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 62 of 303 (637871)
10-18-2011 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Panda
10-18-2011 11:25 AM


Re: Devils Advocate...
Panda writes:
"NOT being restricted by these things" is not the criteria for intelligence.
Fair enough.
So what is?
If human brains result in "intelligence" but individual cells don't what is it that we mean by "intelligence" in this context?
I am not agreeing with (loony) Ziko. Just trying to prompt those who oppose him to think about what it is they actually mean.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Panda, posted 10-18-2011 11:25 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Panda, posted 10-18-2011 11:39 AM Straggler has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 63 of 303 (637873)
10-18-2011 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Straggler
10-18-2011 11:27 AM


Re: Devils Advocate...
Straggler writes:
Fair enough.
So what is?
quote:
Wiki: Intelligence has been defined in different ways, including the abilities for abstract thought, understanding, communication, reasoning, learning, planning, emotional intelligence and problem solving.
None of those seem to describe a plant turning to the sun.
Straggler writes:
If human brains result in "intelligence" but individual cells don't what is it that we mean by "intelligence" in this context?
Zi ko's definition of 'intelligence' seems to be 'unknown and unevidenced mechanism'.
Straggler writes:
Just trying to prompt those who oppose him to think about what it is they actually mean.....
Yes - sometimes I get complacent and need a kick.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2011 11:27 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2011 11:50 AM Panda has seen this message but not replied
 Message 65 by jar, posted 10-18-2011 11:59 AM Panda has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 64 of 303 (637875)
10-18-2011 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Panda
10-18-2011 11:39 AM


Re: Devils Advocate...
Panda writes:
Yes - sometimes I get complacent and need a kick.
Well consider yourself kicked!!
At which point I will leave you and others to confront ziko's particular brand of silliness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Panda, posted 10-18-2011 11:39 AM Panda has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 65 of 303 (637877)
10-18-2011 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Panda
10-18-2011 11:39 AM


Re: Devils Advocate...
Fortunately a human brain is not just one cell, but rather a fairly complex network of cells. While no individual cell can be said to be capable of either though or intelligence the rather complex machine called a brain can.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Panda, posted 10-18-2011 11:39 AM Panda has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2011 12:08 PM jar has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 66 of 303 (637879)
10-18-2011 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by jar
10-18-2011 11:59 AM


Re: Devils Advocate...
OK. How?
Isn't it just a mass of cells responding to stimuli and acting oit the laws of physics?
In what way (to pursue my devils advocate stance) is it not just a more complex variant of plants involuntarily turning towards the Sun?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by jar, posted 10-18-2011 11:59 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by jar, posted 10-18-2011 12:36 PM Straggler has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 67 of 303 (637883)
10-18-2011 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Straggler
10-18-2011 12:08 PM


Re: Devils Advocate...
Because it is capable of NOT turning to face the sun.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2011 12:08 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Straggler, posted 10-19-2011 8:07 AM jar has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 68 of 303 (637885)
10-18-2011 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by zi ko
10-18-2011 1:49 AM


Re: innate intelligence
There is here a tedency to oversimplification and using exambles no analogues to each other.
That is exactly what YOU are guilty of. You are trying to compare human intelligence to deterministic pathways in single cells. They are not analogs. They are very different.
It is memory, decisin making, repairing, ineraction between information units,etc.
There is no decision making in a single cell. That is what separates human intelligence and the actions of a single cell.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by zi ko, posted 10-18-2011 1:49 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by zi ko, posted 10-27-2011 11:08 AM Taq has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 69 of 303 (637886)
10-18-2011 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Panda
10-18-2011 11:25 AM


Re: Devils Advocate...
Panda writes:
In my honest (but uneducated) opinion: No - the brain cells are no different. They are affected by external inputs, but ultimately they will always respond in exactly the same way to the exact same stimuli.
If I was to kick you, your response is already established in your brain.(I realised while writing my previous posts that there was a thin line between the bio-chemical machine that is a plant and the bio-chemical machine that is a human. The main difference I saw was the brain's cognitive abilities.)
Hi Panda
I'll respond to your reply To Straggler as he has already replied to your reply to me much more thoughtfully than I could have.
You are saying that the brain cells are only responsive by external inputs and will always respond the same way to the same stimuli in much the same way as plants.
It feels good to go out in the hot sun. All our external inputs tell us that. However, we also know that if we stay out there any length of time we'll get sunburned and it will be painful.
A plant will always do the same thing. However, we are different. Without somebody telling us otherwise we would feel that it is fine to go out in the sun for long periods and would likely do so - once. Then we learn that even though our external inputs tell us it is good, it is actually bad for us. For us to learn not to do it again we not only need the memory of the first time but have to intelligently make a decision to get out of the sun to avoid sunburn.
Where is that intelligence if it isn't in our cells?
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Panda, posted 10-18-2011 11:25 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 10-18-2011 2:23 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 72 by 1.61803, posted 10-18-2011 2:31 PM GDR has replied
 Message 137 by Panda, posted 10-20-2011 9:42 PM GDR has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 70 of 303 (637887)
10-18-2011 2:00 PM


Zombie ants!!
Intelligence of cells?.............a spermatozoa will propel itself with microtubuals fluctuating action potentials in its tail. The human muscle fibers fire and release due to biochemical and electrical impulses. biochemistry is biochemistry. What I find interesting is there is fungus that uses a ant to do it's bidding.
Is the fungus intelligent?
New Zombie-Ant Fungi Found | Parasites & Mind Control | Live Science
Edited by 1.61803, : added question

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Taq, posted 10-18-2011 3:00 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 71 of 303 (637889)
10-18-2011 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by GDR
10-18-2011 1:48 PM


Re: Devils Advocate...
GDR writes:
Where is that intelligence if it isn't in our cells?
There is no intelligence involved in your example that can "be" anywhere. They are learned responses but they are not innate to a cell anymore than whether a one or zero is stored in a particular bit.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by GDR, posted 10-18-2011 1:48 PM GDR has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 72 of 303 (637890)
10-18-2011 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by GDR
10-18-2011 1:48 PM


Re: Devils Advocate...
GDR writes:
Where is that intelligence if it isn't in our cells?
Intelligence is in the eye of the beholder.imo One cell does not a brain make, yet a collective of neurons operating within the collective of bone, muscle, tissue can make create a Iphone.
At what level do humans ascribe intelligence to other organisms?
And is AI something that is different than "natures" Intelligence?
Are we back to this supernatural is natural business?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by GDR, posted 10-18-2011 1:48 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Taq, posted 10-18-2011 3:02 PM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 76 by GDR, posted 10-18-2011 3:18 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 73 of 303 (637893)
10-18-2011 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by 1.61803
10-18-2011 2:00 PM


Re: Zombie ants!!
What I find interesting is there is fungus that uses a ant to do it's bidding.
Is the fungus intelligent?
The fungus does not bid the ant to do anything. There is no decision making process in the fungus. The chemicals released by the fungus cause the ant to act in a specific manner. Neither the fungus nor the ant has any choice in the matter. That is what they do, just like a rain drop has no say in falling from a cloud.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by 1.61803, posted 10-18-2011 2:00 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by 1.61803, posted 10-18-2011 3:04 PM Taq has replied
 Message 220 by zi ko, posted 10-27-2011 11:23 AM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 74 of 303 (637895)
10-18-2011 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by 1.61803
10-18-2011 2:31 PM


Re: Devils Advocate...
At what level do humans ascribe intelligence to other organisms?
When those organisms have a decision making process that allows them to predict future consequences of their actions and actions currently unfolding in the environment. Single celled organisms are only reactive. They have set responses to set stimuli. There is no decision making process.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by 1.61803, posted 10-18-2011 2:31 PM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by zi ko, posted 10-27-2011 11:28 AM Taq has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 75 of 303 (637896)
10-18-2011 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Taq
10-18-2011 3:00 PM


Re: Zombie ants!!
Hi Taq,
Taq writes:
The fungus does not bid the ant to do anything. There is no decision making process in the fungus. The chemicals released by the fungus cause the ant to act in a specific manner. Neither the fungus nor the ant has any choice in the matter. That is what they do, just like a rain drop has no say in falling from a cloud.
Umm-hmmm....so kinda like the neuron and synapses in your brain arent telling you to type that clap trap eh?(kiddin) You just do what you do. At what point then does intelligence emerge? ***I just saw your answer below*** so disregard. :
Edited by 1.61803, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Taq, posted 10-18-2011 3:00 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Taq, posted 10-18-2011 3:30 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
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