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Author Topic:   Nature's innate intelligence. Does it exist?
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 76 of 303 (637901)
10-18-2011 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by 1.61803
10-18-2011 2:31 PM


Re: Devils Advocate...
1.61803 writes:
Intelligence is in the eye of the beholder.imo One cell does not a brain make, yet a collective of neurons operating within the collective of bone, muscle, tissue can make create a Iphone.
It seems to me that by that reasoning elephants should be really smart. What makes one collective smarter than others?
1.61803 writes:
At what level do humans ascribe intelligence to other organisms?
And is AI something that is different than "natures" Intelligence?
In the first I have no idea, and in the second at the very least AI doesn't make moral choices.
1.61803 writes:
Are we back to this supernatural is natural business?
Kinda, but I'm more inclined to think that the natural is supernatural. It does seem that the more we find out the more we realize we don't know.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by 1.61803, posted 10-18-2011 2:31 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by 1.61803, posted 10-18-2011 4:15 PM GDR has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 77 of 303 (637903)
10-18-2011 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by 1.61803
10-18-2011 3:04 PM


Re: Zombie ants!!
You just do what you do. At what point then does intelligence emerge?
When it is my decision to do it, or not do it. For example, this is the TLR4 pathway that is initiated when the CD14/LPS complex binds to TLR4.
I have personally looked that NFKB translocation as a downstream response to LPS in various TLR4 expressing cells. There is no decision making process in this response. None. It is a triggered response, not a decision. This is not so for the actions I take as part of my intelligent response.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by 1.61803, posted 10-18-2011 3:04 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by 1.61803, posted 10-18-2011 3:48 PM Taq has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 78 of 303 (637907)
10-18-2011 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Taq
10-18-2011 3:30 PM


Re: Zombie ants!!
Hi Taq, kinda looks like the immune system cascade charts IL13 and 14 , cytokine soups etc... yes I get it. The immune system as well operates on loop feedbacks and various complex cytokines and cells that direct what happens in our bodies. But to be fair a cockroach can learn what is dangerous and when to come out. Bees learning to recognize faces, moths conditioned to salivate? These organisms have neuro plexes so to speak, but no brain. Yet exhibit some rudimentary intelligence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Taq, posted 10-18-2011 3:30 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Taq, posted 10-18-2011 4:50 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 79 of 303 (637909)
10-18-2011 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by GDR
10-18-2011 3:18 PM


Re: Devils Advocate...
GDR writes:
It seems to me that by that reasoning elephants should be really smart. What makes one collective smarter than others?
Well it seems what ever it is it is not linked to organism size.
Think coral reef or blue whale.
Einstein's brain was of average size. So intraspecies brian size it seems is a non starter.
It has been postulated that a protein mutation in humans caused our jaw muscles to be smaller thus leaving more room for our noodle. So brain size in primates has some bearing on homonid intelligence.
In the first I have no idea, and in the second at the very least AI doesn't make moral choices.
Morality is a human construct and would not apply to a non human intelligence. Some believe that regardless of the orgin of intelligence that there is a objective morality and eventually a moral code would evolve. Sound nice and gives one a warm fuzzy, but I doubt it. Nah the machines would find us either useful or not. Lets hope the first and not the latter.

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 Message 80 by Nuggin, posted 10-18-2011 4:48 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 80 of 303 (637910)
10-18-2011 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by 1.61803
10-18-2011 4:15 PM


Re: Devils Advocate...
Morality is a human construct and would not apply to a non human intelligence. Some believe that regardless of the orgin of intelligence that there is a objective morality and eventually a moral code would evolve. Sound nice and gives one a warm fuzzy, but I doubt it. Nah the machines would find us either useful or not. Lets hope the first and not the latter.
I would suspect that, unless programmed otherwise, AI would rely on utilitarianism as a moral code. Which outcome is greater? Okay, that's what we do.
It may not be a form of morality that humans will like very much, but it is morality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by 1.61803, posted 10-18-2011 4:15 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by 1.61803, posted 10-18-2011 5:07 PM Nuggin has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 81 of 303 (637911)
10-18-2011 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by 1.61803
10-18-2011 3:48 PM


Re: Zombie ants!!
Hi Taq, kinda looks like the immune system cascade charts IL13 and 14 , cytokine soups etc... yes I get it. The immune system as well operates on loop feedbacks and various complex cytokines and cells that direct what happens in our bodies.
If you give someone a large dose of TNF- is it their intelligence that causes them to feel like shit?
But to be fair a cockroach can learn what is dangerous and when to come out. Bees learning to recognize faces, moths conditioned to salivate? These organisms have neuro plexes so to speak, but no brain. Yet exhibit some rudimentary intelligence.
Yes, rudimentary brains produce rudimentary intelligence. This is a far cry from showing that single cells are intelligent in the same way, and even farther away from showing that mutations are guided by intelligent choices in single celled bacteria.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by 1.61803, posted 10-18-2011 3:48 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by 1.61803, posted 10-18-2011 5:20 PM Taq has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 82 of 303 (637912)
10-18-2011 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Nuggin
10-18-2011 4:48 PM


Re: Devils Advocate...
Hi Nuggin,
I would suspect that, unless programmed otherwise, AI would rely on utilitarianism as a moral code. Which outcome is greater? Okay, that's what we do.
It may not be a form of morality that humans will like very much, but it is morality.
Might I suggest that AI would not have any such use for a moral code. Moral code meaning a defined set for good/right and bad/wrong. In regards to ethics, standards, and moral considerations as opposed to practical considerations. I believe AI would be indifferent to judgement choices and operate strictly on a practical as you said utilitarian based algorhythms. Which outcome is greater is not the same as which outcome is morally bankrupt and which is ethically correct. A machine would give two shits about the destruction of Alderaan where as Ben Kenobi felt a disturbance in the force.

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 Message 80 by Nuggin, posted 10-18-2011 4:48 PM Nuggin has replied

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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


(1)
Message 83 of 303 (637913)
10-18-2011 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by 1.61803
10-18-2011 5:07 PM


Re: Devils Advocate...
Might I suggest that AI would not have any such use for a moral code. Moral code meaning a defined set for good/right and bad/wrong. In regards to ethics, standards, and moral considerations as opposed to practical considerations. I believe AI would be indifferent to judgement choices and operate strictly on a practical as you said utilitarian based algorhythms. Which outcome is greater is not the same as which outcome is morally bankrupt and which is ethically correct. A machine would give two shits about the destruction of Alderaan where as Ben Kenobi felt a disturbance in the force.
Utilitarianism is a moral code, it just has a different means of measuring what is "moral" or "ethical" which is antithetical to most other forms of morality.
In utilitarianism, if killing 100,000 people will allow 100,001 other people to survive, then load up the laser cannons.

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 Message 82 by 1.61803, posted 10-18-2011 5:07 PM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 84 of 303 (637914)
10-18-2011 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Taq
10-18-2011 4:50 PM


Re: Zombie ants!!
Taq writes:
If you give someone a large dose of TNF- is it their intelligence that causes them to feel like shit?
Well I guess the upregulation of the autonomics? Adrenergic sympathatic discharge? Not sure, but pretty sure nothing to do with the blood brain barrier.
And yes I agree, single cells dont think.
. [qs=Taq]

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 Message 81 by Taq, posted 10-18-2011 4:50 PM Taq has not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3667 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 85 of 303 (637923)
10-18-2011 8:01 PM


quote:
Nature's innate intelligence. Does it exist?
Logically, the term innate cannot apply: it infers a dis-logic when the goal post cannot be pushed any further, and thereby an abandonment of all known scientific application. It ceases being science any more.
An action is only possible via an interaction - there is no alternative to this anywhere in the universe.

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3667 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 86 of 303 (637924)
10-18-2011 8:05 PM


There is no such thing as 'NATURE' - in reality. There is also no such thing as an eco-system as its own end; this is a process resultant from an independent, purposefuly formed construct. The chip in a cell phone is also an eco-system of sorts, but its source is not the wiring in the chip!

Replies to this message:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 87 of 303 (637953)
10-18-2011 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by IamJoseph
10-18-2011 8:05 PM


Hi IamJoseph,
I'm a participant in this thread, not a moderator, but given what has taken place over at the My HUGE problem with creationist thinking (re: Which version of creationism) thread I feel urgent action is required so as to prevent you from doing to this thread what you did to that one. I'm removing your posting permissions in this thread's forum, the Is It Science? forum.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by IamJoseph, posted 10-18-2011 8:05 PM IamJoseph has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 88 of 303 (638011)
10-19-2011 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by jar
10-18-2011 12:36 PM


Re: Devils Advocate...
Straggler on the human brain writes:
Isn't it just a mass of cells responding to stimuli and acting out the laws of physics?
In what way (to pursue my devils advocate stance) is it not just a more complex variant of plants involuntarily turning towards the Sun?
jar writes:
Because it is capable of NOT turning to face the sun.
I'll grant you that the range of inputs a brain can respond to is greater than those that the motion of a plant can respond to.
But is the human brain any more capable of doing something other than deterministically responding to inputs and obeying the laws of physics than the plant is?
Given a specific set of inputs is the human brain any more capable of doing otherwise than the plant is when confronted with it's very basic input?
Is intelligence just the unpredictability borne of increased complexity?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by jar, posted 10-18-2011 12:36 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 10-19-2011 8:21 AM Straggler has replied
 Message 96 by Taq, posted 10-19-2011 11:16 AM Straggler has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 89 of 303 (638013)
10-19-2011 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Straggler
10-19-2011 8:07 AM


Re: Devils Advocate...
I'm sorry but I don't see any point or relevancy in that post.
Intelligence is increased complexity and the ability to make irrational, illogical and unreasonable decisions.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Straggler, posted 10-19-2011 8:07 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Straggler, posted 10-19-2011 9:58 AM jar has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 90 of 303 (638024)
10-19-2011 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by jar
10-19-2011 8:21 AM


Re: Devils Advocate...
jar writes:
I'm sorry but I don't see any point or relevancy in that post.
Well a number of people seem to be saying that the plant isn't displaying intelligence because it is simply responding to stimuli as a result of chemistry and physics.
So I am asking - Is the human brain any more capable of doing something other than deterministically responding to inputs and obeying the laws of chemistry and physics than the plant is?
jar writes:
Intelligence is increased complexity and the ability to make irrational, illogical and unreasonable decisions.
Are insects "intelligent"...? Worms? Rhombozoans? Jellyfish? Cats?
It seems obvious that humans are intelligent and cells aren't (well..maybe not to Zi ko) so I am asking what criteria are we applying to qualify something as "intelligent" or not.
Where is the boundary? And if it is blurred (as I would argue it is) what is the nature of the blurring?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 10-19-2011 8:21 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by jar, posted 10-19-2011 10:27 AM Straggler has replied

  
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