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Author Topic:   Nature's innate intelligence. Does it exist?
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 106 of 303 (638062)
10-19-2011 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by zi ko
10-19-2011 12:37 PM


Ziko writes:
Rocks, tides, etc are obeying to physical , chemical , electromagneting etc forces. These forces express their intelligence.
Can we get an IQ score for gravity?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by zi ko, posted 10-19-2011 12:37 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by zi ko, posted 10-19-2011 3:04 PM Straggler has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 107 of 303 (638075)
10-19-2011 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Straggler
10-19-2011 12:19 PM


Re: Devils Advocate...
Hi Straggler, I agree with you. You just condensed what I have been thinking. If plants and humans are subject to the same physics, then it stands to reason at some level this phenomenon of intelligence appears. It seems tied to the complexity and development of a brain and nervous system. The ability to have sensory input of our surroundings. The playing field is level, we and other organisms just happen to have better evolved equipment perhaps.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Straggler, posted 10-19-2011 12:19 PM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-19-2011 3:41 PM 1.61803 has replied
 Message 128 by zi ko, posted 10-20-2011 12:40 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 108 of 303 (638076)
10-19-2011 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Straggler
10-19-2011 1:25 PM


Can we get an IQ score for gravity?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is it supposed to be a" clever" question?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Straggler, posted 10-19-2011 1:25 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by 1.61803, posted 10-19-2011 3:14 PM zi ko has not replied
 Message 111 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-19-2011 3:42 PM zi ko has replied
 Message 129 by Straggler, posted 10-20-2011 12:52 PM zi ko has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 109 of 303 (638077)
10-19-2011 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by zi ko
10-19-2011 3:04 PM


Gravity IQ score = 9.8m/s/s

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by zi ko, posted 10-19-2011 3:04 PM zi ko has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 303 (638081)
10-19-2011 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by 1.61803
10-19-2011 3:03 PM


Re: Devils Advocate...
Hi Straggler, I agree with you. You just condensed what I have been thinking. If plants and humans are subject to the same physics, then it stands to reason at some level this phenomenon of intelligence appears. It seems tied to the complexity and development of a brain and nervous system. The ability to have sensory input of our surroundings. The playing field is level, we and other organisms just happen to have better evolved equipment perhaps.
If you look at the wiki page on "intelligence", you'll see it described as:
quote:
Intelligence has been defined in different ways, including the abilities for abstract thought, understanding, communication, reasoning, learning, planning, emotional intelligence and problem solving.
None of those things require non-determinism, per se. But, they are things that humans do and plants do not. So there's more to the reasons that plants can not be considered intelligent while humans can than the simple 'they can't choose not to do X'... which does seem to preclude determinism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by 1.61803, posted 10-19-2011 3:03 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by 1.61803, posted 10-19-2011 4:14 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 116 by zi ko, posted 10-20-2011 1:07 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 111 of 303 (638082)
10-19-2011 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by zi ko
10-19-2011 3:04 PM


For more honest questions you can see Message 28.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by zi ko, posted 10-19-2011 3:04 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by zi ko, posted 10-20-2011 1:30 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 112 of 303 (638086)
10-19-2011 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by New Cat's Eye
10-19-2011 3:41 PM


Re: Devils Advocate...
Hi Catholic Scientist, I look at things in a sort of "its all one stuff."
attitude. The carbon in sugars of plants is the same carbon we exhale as the same carbon in coal. Now all these things are distinct things with distinct properties but everything is composed of atoms and subject to the laws of physics and intitial conditions. The fact that a plant cant plan ahead and a human can means we are intelligent and they are not. It does not mean the laws of nature have a inherent "innate" intelligence. It means given the right conditions and enough time a thing called intelligence can eventually emerge. Intelligence may simply be a emergent property of matter.
Maybe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-19-2011 3:41 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-19-2011 4:19 PM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 113 of 303 (638087)
10-19-2011 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by 1.61803
10-19-2011 4:14 PM


Re: Devils Advocate...
I agree with you, I was kinda just springboarding off what you had said.

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 Message 112 by 1.61803, posted 10-19-2011 4:14 PM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 114 of 303 (638092)
10-19-2011 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by zi ko
10-19-2011 12:37 PM


Rocks, tides, etc are obeying to physical , chemical , electromagneting etc forces. These forces express their intelligence.
Can you describe something that is not intelligent?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by zi ko, posted 10-19-2011 12:37 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by zi ko, posted 10-20-2011 1:11 AM Taq has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 115 of 303 (638121)
10-19-2011 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by zi ko
10-19-2011 12:37 PM


zi ko writes:
Rocks, tides, etc are obeying to physical , chemical , electromagneting etc forces. These forces express their intelligence.
Then I think you have reduced the word "intelligence" to meaninglessness. So this thread really isn't about anything at all.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by zi ko, posted 10-19-2011 12:37 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by zi ko, posted 10-20-2011 1:41 AM nwr has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 116 of 303 (638128)
10-20-2011 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by New Cat's Eye
10-19-2011 3:41 PM


Re: Devils Advocate...
You seem to agree with above. Then can you say what is your difference with what i had been saying all the time?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-19-2011 3:41 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-20-2011 9:55 AM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 117 of 303 (638129)
10-20-2011 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Taq
10-19-2011 4:54 PM


Not really.

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 Message 114 by Taq, posted 10-19-2011 4:54 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Admin, posted 10-20-2011 8:36 AM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 118 of 303 (638131)
10-20-2011 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by New Cat's Eye
10-19-2011 3:42 PM


Hi Catholic Scientist, I look at things in a sort of "its all one stuff."
attitude. The carbon in sugars of plants is the same carbon we exhale as the same carbon in coal. Now all these things are distinct things with distinct properties but everything is composed of atoms and subject to the laws of physics and intitial conditions. The fact that a plant cant plan ahead and a human can means we are intelligent and they are not. It does not mean the laws of nature have a inherent "innate" intelligence. It means given the right conditions and enough time a thing called intelligence can eventually emerge. Intelligence may simply be a emergent property of matter.
Maybe.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Straggler, I agree with you. You just condensed what I have been thinking. If plants and humans are subject to the same physics, then it stands to reason at some level this phenomenon of intelligence appears. It seems tied to the complexity and development of a brain and nervous system. The ability to have sensory input of our surroundings. The playing field is level, we and other organisms just happen to have better evolved equipment perhaps.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with you, I was kinda just springboarding off what you had said.
------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SO if you agree withabove how can you disagree so intensely with me?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-19-2011 3:42 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 119 of 303 (638132)
10-20-2011 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by nwr
10-19-2011 11:23 PM


Then I think you have reduced the word "intelligence" to meaninglessness. So this thread really isn't about anything at all.
Do you disagree with what 1.61802 says?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by nwr, posted 10-19-2011 11:23 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by nwr, posted 10-20-2011 11:34 AM zi ko has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 120 of 303 (638133)
10-20-2011 1:54 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Straggler
10-19-2011 11:10 AM


Re: Devils Advocate...
OK. Then we seem to have established that your view of "intelligence" seems to require some form of dualism.
I am not sure that this is much more evidentially justifiable than Ziko's notion that cells have intelligence.
So you disagree wit Jar and me. 1.61802 agrees with you. I agree with 1.61802. DO we understand each other?
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Straggler, posted 10-19-2011 11:10 AM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by 1.61803, posted 10-20-2011 11:09 AM zi ko has replied

  
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