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Author Topic:   Nature's innate intelligence. Does it exist?
Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 211 of 303 (638969)
10-27-2011 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by zi ko
10-27-2011 9:52 AM


Re: innate intelligence
zi ko writes:
instead of arguing about semantics and accusing others of doing so, you could answer the topic question (according to my own definition of inelligence)?
Do you understand irony?

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by zi ko, posted 10-27-2011 9:52 AM zi ko has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 212 of 303 (638972)
10-27-2011 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by jar
10-26-2011 8:25 PM


innate intelligence
Peter Swain writes:
The Swain lab
CENTRE for SYSTEMS BIOLOGY at EDINBURGH
University of Edinburgh
We study how cells make decisions. Gathering and processing information is fundamental to life. In all cells, this ability is conferred by biochemical networks, collections of genes and proteins that interact with each other and the extracellular environment. Information is detected by proteins at the cell membrane, processed by biochemical networks in the cytosol and nucleus, and then used to decide an appropriate cellular response. Such cellular decision-making is at the core of synthetic biology and its failure causes disease: whether it is a hijacking of the signalling network by a viral invader, the uncontrolled growth of cancer, or mistimings in the contractions of individual heart cells.
Our work is supported by the Scottish Universities Life Sciences Alliance and the BBSRC.
At least show where Swain suggests "Nature's innate Intelligence".
Don't you think decision making and information processing are intelligent acts (according to my own definition of intelligence)? Or at least say straightly whatyou think they are .

Intellectual terrorism has not any place in evolution debate forums

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by jar, posted 10-26-2011 8:25 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by jar, posted 10-27-2011 10:22 AM zi ko has not replied
 Message 238 by Taq, posted 10-28-2011 5:15 PM zi ko has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 213 of 303 (638975)
10-27-2011 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by zi ko
10-27-2011 10:09 AM


Re: innate intelligence
No, the examples you gave are not intelligence even under your unintelligent definition of intelligence.
What is described in Swain work is simply the explanation of why two Lincoln Logs can mate and why two Legos can mate but why a Lego and a Lincoln Log will not fit together.
No intelligence needed,

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by zi ko, posted 10-27-2011 10:09 AM zi ko has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 214 of 303 (638977)
10-27-2011 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by zi ko
10-27-2011 9:37 AM


Re: innate intelligence
zi ko writes:
Fallacious analogy. The right woul be: If all cars are "intelligent" Laborginis are also "intelligent".
And so it goes. You explain the correct information to the creationist, which he misunderstands. You explain the misunderstanding, but he misunderstands that, too. You use an analogy, he misunderstands the analogy. You can't actually discuss anything with the creationist because interpretation of simple English seems to be at the root of the problem.
So I don't hold out much hope that this will help, but my analogy concerned the pointlessness of simply declaring words to be defined whichever way you want them defined. The analogy was about the fallacious nature of your chosen approach and had nothing to do with intelligence.
You accuse me i play semantic games, but it is you which avoids to face the real issue and state if you see or not any intelligence (according to my own definition) in nature. I am waiting.
I don't know why you're waiting because the answer was in the very message you're responding to. Allow me to quote myself from Message 206:
Percy in Message 206 writes:
Whether the position is that everything is intelligent or cells are intelligent, it's just a relabeling of what nature does as intelligent. Since what nature does is, by definition, innate to nature, then by your definition of intelligent nature's innate intelligence does indeed exist.
Or don't you understand that, either?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by zi ko, posted 10-27-2011 9:37 AM zi ko has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 215 of 303 (638981)
10-27-2011 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Meddle
10-23-2011 7:21 PM


The neuro-genic theory of evolution
For example, Darwin did not conjure up the theory of evolution by natural selection and then went looking for the evidence on the Galapagos. He went there, noted the diversity in Tortoise shells and differences in Galapagos and mainland mockingbirds, then he proceeded to develop a hypothesis to explain these facts.
So what specific examples do you have and how does your 'hypothesis' explain them?
The same as Darwin's and through random or somehow by information directed mutations and other types of genome reactions and natural selection.

Intellectual terrorism has not any place in evolution debate forums

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Meddle, posted 10-23-2011 7:21 PM Meddle has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 216 of 303 (638982)
10-27-2011 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Taq
10-17-2011 12:14 PM


Re: innate intelligence
Humans reaction to light is not due to changes in their genome.
I never have said that. What i am saying is that light in special situations can affect genome.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Taq, posted 10-17-2011 12:14 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Wounded King, posted 10-27-2011 11:22 AM zi ko has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 217 of 303 (638985)
10-27-2011 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by zi ko
10-27-2011 9:13 AM


Re: innate intelligence
Isn't it closely my definition of intelligence? There is not only human or supernatural intelligence. There is also rudimentary basic life intelligence and thinking, based on biochemical forces and to my opinion inorganic matter intelligence expressed by universal laws..
You are doing the same thing here as you did in your thread about empathy powering evolution 'somehow'.
You could not present evidence or even a rationale that would give anyone the slightest suspiscion that your crank idea is true.
Not able to supply evidence, not able to supply a rationale, not able to even use reasoned argument: what are we to conclude from your post here?
The reality is that you want this to be true. You want to pull other people into your conceptual orbit.
Ask yourself this: why do you want this to be true?
I think you'll be unpleasently suprised with the answer.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
Moreover that view is a blatantly anti-relativistic one. I'm rather inclined to think that space being relative to time and time relative to location should make such a naive hankering to pin-point an ultimate origin of anything, an aspiration that is not even wrong.
Well, Larni, let's say I much better know what I don't want to say than how exactly say what I do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by zi ko, posted 10-27-2011 9:13 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by zi ko, posted 10-27-2011 11:46 AM Larni has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 218 of 303 (638986)
10-27-2011 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Taq
10-18-2011 12:56 PM


Re: innate intelligence
There is no decision making in a single cell. That is what separates human intelligence and the actions of a single cell.
Really? I quote:
Peter Swain writes:
The Swain lab
CENTRE for SYSTEMS BIOLOGY at EDINBURGH
University of Edinburgh
We study how cells make decisions. Gathering and processing information is fundamental to life. In all cells, this ability is conferred by biochemical networks, collections of genes and proteins that interact with each other and the extracellular environment. Information is detected by proteins at the cell membrane, processed by biochemical networks in the cytosol and nucleus, and then used to decide an appropriate cellular response. Such cellular decision-making is at the core of synthetic biology and its failure causes disease: whether it is a hijacking of the signalling network by a viral invader, the uncontrolled growth of cancer, or mistimings in the contractions of individual heart cells.
Our work is supported by the Scottish Universities Life Sciences Alliance and the BBSRC.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

Intellectual terrorism has not any place in evolution debate forums

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Taq, posted 10-18-2011 12:56 PM Taq has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


(2)
Message 219 of 303 (638987)
10-27-2011 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by zi ko
10-27-2011 10:58 AM


Re: innate intelligence
What i am saying is that light in special situations can affect genome.
The thing is that virtually all of those situations are in somatic cells and therefore almost completely irrelevant to evolution in terms of genome modification. In the same way that rearrangements in the genomes of cells in the immune system can be stimulated by outside challenges but are not passed on to successive generations in the germline.
You might have a point in terms of single celled organisms, where light (specifically UV) can directly interact with the singular copy of the genome that will give rise to any successors. Once again we are returning to the same issue that all of the 'directed' mutational systems, weak as they are, are only apparently suitable for unicellular organisms and don't appear to have any plausible mechanism by which to operate in metazoa with a somatic/germline division.
The problem as I see it is that you, and Shapiro as well to a large extent, are describing a real phenomenon but confusing the issue by trying to marry it to a word which already has a common and well understood usage which is not readily compatible with the usage you wish to ascribe to it. Your usage puts a very heavy and totally uncalled for teleological thrust into the discussion of cellular mechanisms.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by zi ko, posted 10-27-2011 10:58 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
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zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 220 of 303 (638988)
10-27-2011 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Taq
10-18-2011 3:00 PM


Re: Zombie ants!!
The fungus does not bid the ant to do anything. There is no decision making process in the fungus. The chemicals released by the fungus cause the ant to act in a specific manner. Neither the fungus nor the ant has any choice in the matter. That is what they do, just like a rain drop has no say in falling from a cloud.
Isn't it an examble of intelligence ? (according to my own definition and Swain, Buhler, Shapiro work.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Taq, posted 10-18-2011 3:00 PM Taq has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 221 of 303 (638990)
10-27-2011 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Taq
10-18-2011 3:02 PM


Re: Devils Advocate...
They have set responses to set stimuli. There is no decision making process.
This is the beggining of intelligence{ according to my definition)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Taq, posted 10-18-2011 3:02 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Percy, posted 10-27-2011 11:36 AM zi ko has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 222 of 303 (638992)
10-27-2011 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by zi ko
10-27-2011 11:28 AM


Re: Devils Advocate...
Zi Ko, what, are you so bored you're picking out random messages from last week to reply to? Or are you just catching up on your unreplied-to messages? Did you know there's an "Acknowledge this reply" link at the bottom of each message?
Whatever it is, please stop making a hash out of the thread. You're disrupting the natural course of the discussion.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by zi ko, posted 10-27-2011 11:28 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by zi ko, posted 10-27-2011 11:57 AM Percy has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 223 of 303 (638997)
10-27-2011 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Larni
10-27-2011 11:03 AM


Re: innate intelligence
Not able to supply evidence, not able to supply a rationale, not able to even use reasoned argument: what are we to conclude from your post here?
I agree ebout evidence, but about rationale i doupt. Have you read my work? (http://www.sleepgadgetabs.com)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Larni, posted 10-27-2011 11:03 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Larni, posted 10-28-2011 7:37 AM zi ko has not replied
 Message 227 by Percy, posted 10-28-2011 8:32 AM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 224 of 303 (639003)
10-27-2011 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Percy
10-27-2011 11:36 AM


.
No there isn't such link. Sorry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Percy, posted 10-27-2011 11:36 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Percy, posted 10-27-2011 1:49 PM zi ko has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 225 of 303 (639022)
10-27-2011 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by zi ko
10-27-2011 11:57 AM


Re: .
zi ko writes:
No there isn't such link. Sorry.
The link actually says "You have not yet responded." If you click on it it becomes "You have acknowledged this reply." There's no need to go through your old unreplied-to messages posting one line responses.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by zi ko, posted 10-27-2011 11:57 AM zi ko has not replied

  
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