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Author Topic:   Crime and Punishment
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 16 of 40 (639244)
10-29-2011 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
10-28-2011 7:40 PM


Responsibilities of mentoring prisoners
jar writes:
Too many Christian groups act as "chaplains" or "counselors" in prisons and go there to "take the Good News of Christ" instead of going to feed, comfort, educate, clothe. In reality, they are nothing more than another way for the State to avoid providing the help that the prisoners really need and instead simply peddle platitudes and word salad.
I visit as a mentor to a local youth prison. I have been doing so for over ten years, and while I have made my share of mistakes...I have also learned a lot from the discipline. At first, I used to go to "preach word salad", as you so cleverly put it. Volunteers have a limited amount of time to spend with their charges, and while educating them is an option, many are not ready for the discipline needed. Treating an individual is a holistic endeavor. Many of these youth come from families that have had generations in prison. The system is broken, that much we can agree on.
I seek to establish a rapport and a level of trust with my charges, which can often take several months of visits. I often attempt to educate them in the basics of planning for the future when they will be out. We often discuss such topics as the sociology of their current environment, global competition and the necessity for education in America, the responsibility of bringing kids into the world, the charge and responsibility of a spiritual life, and some strategies for planning...which I usually encourage them to initiate. Each individual is different, of course, and I always have to question my own motives for volunteering and attempt to do the best that I can at it...but quite frankly, in a broken system, they will not get better opportunities than I.
add by edit: Took out my offensive jab and personal attack on jar
Edited by Phat, : edited my mouth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 10-28-2011 7:40 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Jon, posted 10-29-2011 12:32 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 20 by jar, posted 10-29-2011 5:01 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 21 by NoNukes, posted 10-29-2011 7:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 17 of 40 (639245)
10-29-2011 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Rahvin
10-28-2011 7:54 PM


Root Causes
Rahvin writes:
the solution is to address the root causes of crime in the first place, and help criminals such that they can see a promising future without resorting to crime.
I fully agree, but in an era when states are cutting budgets as is, the solution appears unlikely...given cost restraints.

This message is a reply to:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 40 (639247)
10-29-2011 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
10-29-2011 12:15 PM


Re: Responsibilities of mentoring prisoners
And of course that's all well and good for Phat, but what about the kids who are in prison?
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 10-29-2011 12:15 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 19 of 40 (639248)
10-29-2011 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Omnivorous
10-28-2011 9:18 PM


Re: "If you ain't got the do re mi, boys..."
Omni writes:
Rahvin, you've come full circle to the connection I see with OWS--economic injustice creates a criminal class, and that injustice follows that class throughout their prison experience. For many prison alumni, their first prison experience is a brutal radicalization--not a political radicalization, but one of deep, abiding rage against a world that first denied them opportunity, and then denied their very humanity.
I can't help but remember when I was on a rant about shoplifters at my local safeway and you pointed out some of the legitimate reasons they may have to steal.
Its easy for society to wish to lock up those who threaten us, but the long term solutions start with empathy(not sympathy, mind you) and a plan of genuine rehabilitation, if it is possible. Granted, its not easy.
We cant undo a lifetimes programming with one year of Parole classes.

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 Message 15 by Omnivorous, posted 10-28-2011 9:18 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 20 of 40 (639263)
10-29-2011 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
10-29-2011 12:15 PM


Re: Responsibilities of mentoring prisoners
The problem is that you have no training as a counselor or teacher or psychiatrist or psychologist or even as a mentor.
But the State sees you as an acceptable substitute for providing any of the services that might help rehabilitate and educate people that are incarcerated.
Christian organizations like the one you volunteer with are a big part of the problem, a sop and hand wave way of avoiding doing what is needed.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 40 (639267)
10-29-2011 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
10-29-2011 12:15 PM


Re: Responsibilities of mentoring prisoners
I respectfully disagree with Jar. The state is not going to provide any services regardless of whether any volunteers step up to the plate. It would be foolish to think that if all of the volunteer organizations quit, that the state would feel pressure to do better.
If you are making an inmates life more bearable then you are way better than nothing.

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 40 (639268)
10-29-2011 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Rahvin
10-28-2011 7:54 PM


What Should be Done?
Allow me to play the devil's advocate for a little bit here and ask you how you think crimes should be 'punished'?
Do you favor mostly the European system that you talk about in your posts? Do you have anything special that you's add or take away from that system?
Or perhaps you have a revolutionary system of your own?
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 10-29-2011 7:46 PM Jon has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 23 of 40 (639269)
10-29-2011 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Jon
10-29-2011 7:29 PM


Re: What Should be Done?
The first step would be to decriminalize many current offenses and declare the War on Drugs over.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Jon, posted 10-29-2011 7:29 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Jon, posted 10-29-2011 7:54 PM jar has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 40 (639270)
10-29-2011 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
10-29-2011 7:46 PM


Re: What Should be Done?
The first step would be to decriminalize many current offenses and declare the War on Drugs over.
That will definitely help cut down on the prison population; but what about penalties for things that remain crimes?
Jon
Edited by Jon, : clarity

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 10-29-2011 7:46 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 10-29-2011 8:05 PM Jon has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 25 of 40 (639271)
10-29-2011 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Jon
10-29-2011 7:54 PM


Re: What Should be Done?
The first step is to cut the inflow, then rationalize the system
There are no good fast solutions.
The big problem is that the laws are just plain stupid, and not just the drug laws.
I remember when I was in Georgia, the penalty for busting into a Coke Machine and stealing the quarters was longer than for robbing the 7-11.
Our whole system is screwed up and it will take decades to make the needed changes.
The first step I'd suggest is to start by abolishing all laws below the State level.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 24 by Jon, posted 10-29-2011 7:54 PM Jon has not replied

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 380 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


(2)
Message 26 of 40 (639322)
10-30-2011 12:20 PM


One thing that consistently annoys about the way our "justice" system works is that people always want it about Revenge or think the government should "punish" someone .
I don't think it's the government's job to determine what's good , bad or moral. The government's only job is to protect the public as a whole and it's safety. Revenge shouldn't be a factor regardless of how someone feels.
Edited by DC85, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 29 by crashfrog, posted 10-30-2011 2:14 PM DC85 has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 40 (639336)
10-30-2011 1:55 PM


TED Video on Social Inequality
In a thread over at FA about 'Occupy London', jar posted a link to a TED video that I found particularly relevant to this discussion on crime. There is a section toward the middle (7:35) especially on topic where Wilkinson discusses crime and imprisonment.
Video Link
Jon
Edited by Jon, : subtitle

Love your enemies!

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 28 of 40 (639338)
10-30-2011 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by DC85
10-30-2011 12:20 PM


One thing that consistently annoys about the way our "justice" system works is that people always want it about Revenge or think the government should "punish" someone .
I don't think it's the government's job to determine what's good , bad or moral.
Suppose a woman kills two people - comes home, finds her husband in bed with another woman, kills them both.
Homicides of this type ("heat of moment", murderer knows the victim, thought they were justified) have the lowest rate of recidivism - rather close to "none" - because they're not killing for the pleasure of killing, they had a specific person or persons in mind that they wanted to be dead, and now that they are, well, you can't kill someone twice.
How much time should that woman serve for a double 2nd-degree murder? (Or possibly "involuntary manslaughter" if the defense can prove the circumstances made her "emotionally disturbed.") There's a high degree of statistical certainty that she won't offend again. How does it "protect the public" to incarcerate her for any length of time?
Or another example - the crime with the highest rate of recidivism is grand theft; thieves almost always return to a life of crime after serving their sentences because big-ticket theft makes a lot of money in a short period of time with relatively low personal risk, the crime is a particular warning flag for employers (who don't want their stuff stolen) and therefore thieves in particular have a hard time integrating into lawful society, and it's a "high skill" type of crime that thieves become invested in because of their training. Under your "protect the public" rubric it seems like we should give car thieves life sentences - or even the death penalty - because of the statistical surety that a car thief will steal more cars after we let him out.
I would say that life sentences for car thieves and small fines for double murderers pervert most people's sense of what the purpose of the criminal justice system is supposed to be, but this seems to be the inescapable conclusion of your rejection of the notion that "justice" is about punishing the guilty.
The third point I would add is that, in all iterative versions of the "Prisoner's Dilemma", quid pro quo ("I'll start out cooperating, but then I'll do to you whatever you did to me last round") invariably emerges as the most stable and effective overall strategy. That's a significant piece of evidence that, in fact, retributive justice is crucial to the protection and safety of society.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by DC85, posted 10-30-2011 12:20 PM DC85 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by DC85, posted 10-30-2011 2:52 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 29 of 40 (639339)
10-30-2011 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by DC85
10-30-2011 12:20 PM


Also, as you read up on the iterative Prisoner's Dilemma, make sure you pay particular attention to the results of the "I'll never betray you" strategy, which I would say most closely resembles the viewpoint expressed by "two wrongs don't make a right."

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DC85
Member (Idle past 380 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 30 of 40 (639344)
10-30-2011 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by crashfrog
10-30-2011 2:11 PM


How much time should that woman serve for a double 2nd-degree murder? (Or possibly "involuntary manslaughter" if the defense can prove the circumstances made her "emotionally disturbed.") There's a high degree of statistical certainty that she won't offend again. How does it "protect the public" to incarcerate her for any length of time?
It doesn't but at the same time... should one go after someone for the sake of revenge of a death or anything else? When does it stop? Why is doing it through the government different?
the crime with the highest rate of recidivism is grand theft; thieves almost always return to a life of crime after serving their sentences because big-ticket theft makes a lot of money in a short period of time with relatively low personal risk, the crime is a particular warning flag for employers (who don't want their stuff stolen) and therefore thieves in particular have a hard time integrating into lawful society, and it's a "high skill" type of crime that thieves become invested in because of their training. Under your "protect the public" rubric it seems like we should give car thieves life sentences - or even the death penalty - because of the statistical surety that a car thief will steal more cars after we let him
perhaps? It would indeed be about the threat to majority of society. I'm not sure one crime is "worse" than the other...
This also could be because I tend not to think with emotion... I'm rather "cold"
I think the the government would find it in it's best interest to prevent the crime by investing in low income schools and getting people on their feet. The truth is the vast majority of these crimes happen in and with "hopeless" people who think that is the only way to get ahead.
Punishing people for doing "bad things" seems like a pointless practice to me.
Edited by DC85, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by crashfrog, posted 10-30-2011 2:11 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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