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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Occupy Wall Street

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Author Topic:   Occupy Wall Street
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 451 of 602 (639524)
11-01-2011 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 450 by jar
11-01-2011 1:04 PM


Re: Parlimentary system
Are Senators not elected?
Trick question.
What are the choices we are offered for our vote?
If every current representative were voted out of office over the next election cycle, I'm not particularly convinced that their newly elected competitors would significantly change the parts of the system we object to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by jar, posted 11-01-2011 1:04 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 457 by dronestar, posted 11-01-2011 3:54 PM Rahvin has replied
 Message 460 by jar, posted 11-01-2011 5:08 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 452 of 602 (639525)
11-01-2011 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 450 by jar
11-01-2011 1:04 PM


Re: Parlimentary system
The original vision of the Founding Fathers was that they would be selected, not elected. We amended how that works. Why not further amend the original vision of the Senate?
It's always been the purpose of the Senate to pervert the notion of democracy. I'm still waiting for you to explain how that's a good thing, or how I would "just know" that it is by virtue of being a resident of a rural state.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by jar, posted 11-01-2011 1:04 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 453 by Rahvin, posted 11-01-2011 1:49 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 454 by Modulous, posted 11-01-2011 2:05 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 461 by jar, posted 11-01-2011 5:15 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 453 of 602 (639527)
11-01-2011 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 452 by crashfrog
11-01-2011 1:14 PM


Re: Parlimentary system
It's always been the purpose of the Senate to pervert the notion of democracy. I'm still waiting for you to explain how that's a good thing
Jar has correctly pointed out that true democracy just results in tyranny of the majority. I recall a quote from Benjamin Franklin involving two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner.
The problem with the actual system implemented in the US is that "minorities" today are not determined by the borders of a state. We don't have the same issues they had in the 18th century - we don't have low-population rural states with slavery-driven agrarian economies, for instance (note the Constitutional compromises on how slaves count toward population for the purpose of representation in the House, as well as the Senate topic already under discussion). Today, "minorities" are location-nonspecific. Racial, religious, and sexual orientation minorities exist in every state - they don't gain the same protection from the majority through equal-representation-by-state that the Founders intended for the interests of smaller states.
In fact, the system of all-or-nothing representation (ie, simple majority representation, meaning 49% of a district need receive no representation at all) means that actual minority interests in teh US receive typically no representation at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by crashfrog, posted 11-01-2011 1:14 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 455 by crashfrog, posted 11-01-2011 3:15 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 454 of 602 (639528)
11-01-2011 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 452 by crashfrog
11-01-2011 1:14 PM


Re: Parlimentary system
The original vision of the Founding Fathers was that they would be selected, not elected. We amended how that works.
I've found your criticism of the Senate to be rather interesting. Here in the UK, of course our second house is selected (by the Monarch via the PM). And furthermore about 4% of the house are bishops in the Church of England (and only England) that get a seat by right. Some people in the Lords have still got their seat by virtue of being born to a certain father - and by some I mean 88. There are reforms under discussion.
Is there any place for a Senate/House of Lords at all? It seems that Senate exists so that the State Governments have power over the People's ability to legislate according to their will. That might have made sense as a compromise in its temporal context, but does it make sense at all now?
The power of the Lords has been severely diminished recently (over the past 100 years) to the point that the Commons can bypass it entirely when it comes to legislation if it so chooses.
But to the topic at hand, do you think Senate reform will help towards the goals of OWS? I would think you believed it was a vital step towards enacting the will of the people. The OWS people however seem more concerned with the financing reform. Do you think they should be thinking about the problems that derive from the Senate more?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by crashfrog, posted 11-01-2011 1:14 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 456 by crashfrog, posted 11-01-2011 3:17 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 455 of 602 (639531)
11-01-2011 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 453 by Rahvin
11-01-2011 1:49 PM


Re: Parlimentary system
Jar has correctly pointed out that true democracy just results in tyranny of the majority.
So how is that worse than a tyranny of the minority? At some point, you have to govern by the consent - and the consensus - of the governed. You can't just say "OMG tyranny of the majority" and somehow handwave all the much larger problems that stem from a small group of elites thinking that they can responsibly wield absolute power over those they govern.
We already have an outfit meant to give disproportionate weight to the claims of minorities against the law; it's called the courts. Why do we need a Senate? What is gained by allowing the <1% of Americans who live in Montana to overrule the 54% of Americans who live in cities?
In fact, the system of all-or-nothing representation (ie, simple majority representation, meaning 49% of a district need receive no representation at all) means that actual minority interests in teh US receive typically no representation at all.
I think we're getting at the same thing. I would add that the Senate sure as hell didn't do very much for Indians and slaves; was there ever a time when the Senate actually prevented "tyranny of the majority"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by Rahvin, posted 11-01-2011 1:49 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 462 by Rahvin, posted 11-01-2011 5:41 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 456 of 602 (639532)
11-01-2011 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 454 by Modulous
11-01-2011 2:05 PM


Re: Parlimentary system
Do you think they should be thinking about the problems that derive from the Senate more?
Yes, insomuch as its the rules of the Senate that so tremendously bias the Federal government towards the status quo.
Fun fact you may appreciate, Mod - not only does our Federal government have a "representation of states" Senate, our states have senates, too. How the fuck does that make any sense?
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1417
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 457 of 602 (639537)
11-01-2011 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 451 by Rahvin
11-01-2011 1:12 PM


Re: Parlimentary system
Rahvin writes:
I'm not particularly convinced that their newly elected competitors would significantly change the parts of the system we object to.
I would like your opinion tested. It would be my desire that ANY candidate (like Obama) that receives funding from corporate america is immediately rejected as a voter's choice. In their place, let's elect Green party, Socialist party, or any other third party candidate who don't/won't receive corporate backing and see what happens.
By now, can't all the voters see what happens when we elect people who are slaves to their Wall Street masters?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by Rahvin, posted 11-01-2011 1:12 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by crashfrog, posted 11-01-2011 4:05 PM dronestar has not replied
 Message 465 by Rahvin, posted 11-01-2011 5:52 PM dronestar has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 458 of 602 (639538)
11-01-2011 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 457 by dronestar
11-01-2011 3:54 PM


Re: Parlimentary system
It would be my desire that ANY candidate (like Obama) that receives funding from corporate america is immediately rejected as a voter's choice.
How would you know if they did?
And what candidate would place themselves at such an enormous disadvantage by refusing?
In their place, let's elect Green party, Socialist party, or any other third party candidate who don't/won't receive corporate backing and see what happens.
If they can credibly win, why wouldn't they get corporate backing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by dronestar, posted 11-01-2011 3:54 PM dronestar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 459 by hooah212002, posted 11-01-2011 4:47 PM crashfrog has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 827 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 459 of 602 (639542)
11-01-2011 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 458 by crashfrog
11-01-2011 4:05 PM


Re: Parlimentary system
And what candidate would place themselves at such an enormous disadvantage by refusing?
What is the necessity of the funding? Why do they need millions of dollars in donations?

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by crashfrog, posted 11-01-2011 4:05 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 463 by crashfrog, posted 11-01-2011 5:47 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 460 of 602 (639545)
11-01-2011 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 451 by Rahvin
11-01-2011 1:12 PM


Re: Parlimentary system
No, it is not a trick question and yes, the replacements would likely be very much like what is there now.
The problem is the electorate.
Our Representatives simply reflect the voters.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by Rahvin, posted 11-01-2011 1:12 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 461 of 602 (639547)
11-01-2011 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 452 by crashfrog
11-01-2011 1:14 PM


Re: Parlimentary system
I'm sorry but sometimes the bullshit you post is simply too funny for words but I'll admit I do get a hearty laugh from your contributions.
quote:
It's always been the purpose of the Senate to pervert the notion of democracy.
Too funny.
The founding fathers were of course terrified, and rightly so, of the idea of a Democracy, which is why they created the limits they did on government.
Yes, the Senate was meant as one way of preventing the possibility of a pure Democracy.
And yes, the idea of "one man one vote" would have seemed crazy to them.
And in case you have missed it, I have mentioned several times in this thread that Amending the current Constitution is one method of change.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by crashfrog, posted 11-01-2011 1:14 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 464 by crashfrog, posted 11-01-2011 5:48 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 462 of 602 (639548)
11-01-2011 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 455 by crashfrog
11-01-2011 3:15 PM


Re: Parlimentary system
So how is that worse than a tyranny of the minority? At some point, you have to govern by the consent - and the consensus - of the governed. You can't just say "OMG tyranny of the majority" and somehow handwave all the much larger problems that stem from a small group of elites thinking that they can responsibly wield absolute power over those they govern.
Certainly not, and that's not what I advocate. "Tyranny of the majority" refers to the very real political problem whereby unpopular minorities will be persecuted purely for being unpopular, not because of any compelling state interest, such as the banning of gay marriage purely based on "tradition."
That doesn't mean that the concept of creating laws and governance based on the preferences of the majority is somehow invalidated; only that the rule of the majority should be confined to specific interests of society as a whole (meaning things that actually affect the state and society) as opposed to just basic popularity contests.
We already have an outfit meant to give disproportionate weight to the claims of minorities against the law; it's called the courts.
Incomplete. In a true democracy, courts would be guided by the laws...enacted by the majority. The courts are the means by which one can seek redress through the law, but the courts themselves are not the protection we offer to minorities.
The Constitution and the fair application of laws is what protects against the Tyranny of the Majority. One cannot persecute unpopular minority religious sects, because of the First Amendment. You cannot persecute unpopular minority opinions, because of the First Amendment.
The Courts are the tool, but it's the Constitution that actually sets the framework under which the courts protect minorities. Without those Constitutional protections, a populist Congress could simply enact whatever oppressive law sounds best to the majority at a given moment, and the Court would be forced to use that framework.
Why do we need a Senate? What is gained by allowing the <1% of Americans who live in Montana to overrule the 54% of Americans who live in cities?
And therein lies where we do agree, crash. The Senate was implemented as a protection for minority populations as defined by state boarders. It worked very well in preventing the larger-population (since slaves only counted as 3/5 of a person) Northern states from outlawing slavery in the Southern states, for example.
"Very well," of course, for those to whom preserving the institution of slavery was actually a goal.
The concept of states as representative of majority or minority views is outdated. "States rights" is a concept that doesn't particularly work with regard to protecting minority views. Yes, "states rights" can hypothetically "protect" minority views like criminalizing abortion or legalizing the possession of concealed weapons or banning the recognition of gay marriage...but as it turns out, these sorts of issues are typically Constitutionally governed anyway. The Constitutional right to privacy mandates the legality of abortion. The Constitutional right to keep and bear arms governs the ability to own weapons. The Constitutional guarantee of equal treatment before the law governs gay marriage.
The political theory is that there will be greater and more relevant consent to be governed under laws determined by yourself and your neighbors rather than a more populous region across the country. The idea has merit, and had more when "across the country" meant more than a few hours on a plane or no time at all on the internet or by phone. But I'd argue that the relevance has decreased as the relevance of geographical location has decreased.
So long as individual states have their own legal frameworks (as opposed to a purely Federal system), I can see a reason for something like the Senate to exist. I'm just not so convinced that the Senate is the best solution to the problem.
One alternative solution, of course, would be to abolish the concept of state-specific laws entirely, and make all laws Federal. Another would be to change what specifically the Senate does - perhaps make the Senate only able to block laws rather than being required to pass them, which would allow a majorty0in-the-Senate (which could still represent a minority of the population) to block a law, but would allow most laws to pass so long as they were enacted in the House. I'm not a political scientist, real solutions would require more than five minutes of me thinking at work, my point is just that I'd like to see alternative considerations to the current mechanism.
I think we're getting at the same thing. I would add that the Senate sure as hell didn't do very much for Indians and slaves; was there ever a time when the Senate actually prevented "tyranny of the majority"?
Again, yes. Equal representation by state has resulted in many laws that would otherwise be passed to be blocked because of the concern of just a few states - if all votes were dependent only on raw population like under a purely democratic system, those laws would have passed.
But remember, the Senate was never intended to protect against "minorities" as we define them today. It was intended to prevent higher-population states from interfering with the internal processes and laws of smaller states - a very different (and I would suggest less important) definition of "Tyranny of the Majority" than, say, outlawing homosexuality would fall under.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by crashfrog, posted 11-01-2011 3:15 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 466 by crashfrog, posted 11-01-2011 5:54 PM Rahvin has replied
 Message 477 by NoNukes, posted 11-02-2011 12:52 AM Rahvin has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 463 of 602 (639549)
11-01-2011 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 459 by hooah212002
11-01-2011 4:47 PM


Re: Parlimentary system
Why do they need millions of dollars in donations?
Because the out of the thousand-plus people involved in a presidential campaign, only the low-skilled ones work for free. Because national airtime costs several hundred thousand dollars per second.
Because the only way to win is to show up, and that means that you have to put your face and your message before as many Americans as possible, and that costs an enormous outlay of cash. So the only plausible presidential contenders are those who either can attract enormous sums in donations or those who already have a substantial amount of money.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by hooah212002, posted 11-01-2011 4:47 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 464 of 602 (639550)
11-01-2011 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 461 by jar
11-01-2011 5:15 PM


Re: Parlimentary system
I'm sorry but sometimes the bullshit you post is simply too funny for words but I'll admit I do get a hearty laugh from your contributions.
It's too bad your evasions aren't more entertaining. Would you like another shot at actually responding to the questions that were put to you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by jar, posted 11-01-2011 5:15 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 465 of 602 (639551)
11-01-2011 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 457 by dronestar
11-01-2011 3:54 PM


Re: Parlimentary system
I would like your opinion tested. It would be my desire that ANY candidate (like Obama) that receives funding from corporate america is immediately rejected as a voter's choice. In their place, let's elect Green party, Socialist party, or any other third party candidate who don't/won't receive corporate backing and see what happens.
By now, can't all the voters see what happens when we elect people who are slaves to their Wall Street masters?
The system is self-sustaining, now. Public opinion maintains that thre are only two "viable" parties, and that a vote for a third party is wasted, and gerrymandering of districts assures that change is incredibly difficult.
But even if that were not the case, I'd shudder at the thought of voting for a person solely on the basis of their campaign funding. The Green party, for example, does not represent me - I don't want them in power.
My problem is that we have few or even no "good" choices, no candidates that would actually represent us particularly well. The two-party system, because of the all-or-nothing single-representative system, has effectively stamped out the possibility of minority parties.
I'd rather see more representatives than one per district, with the number of seats assigned to parties proportionally to the votes. If there are 10 seats in a given district and Party A wins 30%, Party B wins 20%, and Party C wins 50%, I;d like A to get 3 representatives, B to get 2, and C to get 5. This would assure that minority views will be represented but may not actually get enough of a vote to win, and also would destroy the concept of a "wasted" vote when considering alternative parties.
I think it's odd when a district can be represented by an individual whose views are vehemently opposed by 30% or more of his constituents, who themselves receive no voice at all in government.
It's "Tyranny of the Majority" all over again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by dronestar, posted 11-01-2011 3:54 PM dronestar has not replied

Replies to this message:
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