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Author | Topic: This just in, Wisconsin Senators Pass Bill Pushing Abstinence Over Contraception | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
"abstinence is the only sure fire way to not get pregnant or get STD's" is a factual one No it is not. Of course we all know where babies come from. But practicing abstinence often turns out to be a difficult and many kids fail the attempt to be chaste. Crashfrog has done an excellent job of explaining the point to Jon. I'd suggest reviewing that discussion. Let's just say that you cannot cure homelessness by telling people to just own a house.
hooah212002 writes: If we can pinpoint that abstinence only education is strictly religious in nature, I think we've taken a few steps forward in killing this monster. I don't think you've come close to making this argument.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 830 days) Posts: 3193 Joined:
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No it is not. Of course we all know where babies come from. Wait a minute...are you saying you can get pregnant even if you abstain from sexual intercourse?
But practicing abstinence often turns out to be a difficult and many kids fail the attempt to be chaste. No shit, sherlock. If you tell kids the risks that go along with having sex, safe sex and the like, then tell them that the only way to absolutely avoid those problems is to abstain, you've not told a falsehood.
Crashfrog has done an excellent job of explaining the point to Jon. I'd suggest reviewing that discussion. Crashfrog has addressed Jon, whom has made points separate from mine.
I don't think you've come close to making this argument. That was my initial question, though. QUESTION being the key word. If the QUESTION can't be answered in a straightforward manner, then that means that abstinence only education is religious in nature and has no business in public school. If the two of us, who are on the same side of this discussion, cannot see eye to eye, how can we further it? The people on the other side of the discussion have NO problem being in agreement, why can't we?"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Wait a minute...are you saying you can get pregnant even if you abstain from sexual intercourse? Well, yeah. I mean, surely you can think for five seconds about some of the myriad ways a woman might get pregnant that don't involve voluntary vaginal intercourse. Surely you can take another five seconds to imagine ways in which STD's can - and have - spread that have nothing to do with having sexual intercourse. Remember all those kids with AIDS in the 80's, and how they got it?
If you tell kids the risks that go along with having sex, safe sex and the like, then tell them that the only way to absolutely avoid those problems is to abstain, you've not told a falsehood. But you have told a falsehood - being abstinent won't "absolutely avoid" pregnancy or STD's. The failure rate of abstinence at preventing pregnancy and STD's is remarkably high - it's the least effective means to protect yourself from either.
Crashfrog has addressed Jon, whom has made points separate from mine. No, I think you'll see that Jon was making the same mistake you were; that is, determining the failure rate of abstinence based only on the cases where abstinence didn't fail. That's like determining if an airplane is safe based only on the cases where it didn't crash.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 830 days) Posts: 3193 Joined:
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No, I think you'll see that Jon was making the same mistake you were; that is, determining the failure rate of abstinence based only on the cases where abstinence didn't fail. No. I didn't consider those possibilities. I didn't even think about them. "Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
No. I didn't consider those possibilities. I didn't even think about them. Yes, I'm starting to get that impression. So then whence your adamant position that "abstinence absolutely protects you from pregnancy and STD's"?
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 830 days) Posts: 3193 Joined:
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Yes, I'm starting to get that impression. What do you mean? I admitted to it, so how are you "getting that impression"?
So then whence your adamant position that "abstinence absolutely protects you from pregnancy and STD's"? Obviously, I've rethought that statement. You should note that it is obvious I am the furthest thing from a proponent of abstinence only education."Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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Obviously, I've rethought that statement. Fair enough, though there wasn't anything "obvious" about it. But I'll take your word for it.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Fair enough, though there wasn't anything "obvious" about it. But I'll take your word for it. Good grief dude. Take your foot off the guy's neck. He said he was sorry! Let him back up.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
hooah212002 writes: If the QUESTION can't be answered in a straightforward manner, then that means that abstinence only education is religious in nature and has no business in public school. In my opinion, the argument you are trying to use will not work. There is nothing unconstitutional about teaching abstinence. If a teacher taught abstinence and never mentioned anything else there would be no constitutional issue. If there is a constitutional issue at all, it would have to involve the requirement to rebut advice regarding use FDA approved contraceptives with religiously based rationale. But anyone can come up with something that would not be a problem. Using the "abstinence never fails" logic is not unconstitutional, it's just stupid. And reasons like, "The legislature does not feel that kids are not emotionally ready for relationships that include sex" would probably would pass muster. One dimension of the Dover trial is that there was plenty of evidence available to show that the "scientific" reasons for teaching ID offered by the defendants were not the real ones. Absent that evidence, who knows how things would have turned out.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 830 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
In my opinion, the argument you are trying to use will not work. I wasn't trying to make an argument. I was simply asking whether or not there is any secular reason to teach abstinence only education. I'm not trying to defend it or bring up the constitutionality of it, just asking. It is just my opinion that the only reason to teach it is religiously motivated unless there are actual secular reasons to teach it that I am unaware of."Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
No, I think you're quite correct - there's no plausible secular defense for "abstinence-only". It's a religiously-motivated moral panic, basically.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
I was simply asking whether or not there is any secular reason to teach abstinence only education. There is a secular reason to teach abstinence, where it is successfully implemented it is a fantastic way to minimise STDs and pregnancy. There is no good secular reason to neglect to teach children about the existence of usage of contraceptives. The only reason I've ever seen which could be construed as secular is that by teaching that sex can be made safe with proper use of condoms with the pill as a backup (for example) may cause risky behaviour (that is it might foster promiscuity). Of course, whether or not promiscuity is a bad thing is a moral argument, and the main moral arguments raised against promiscuity have a religious base. Though I can imagine some secular arguments that might be tried.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
There is a secular reason to teach abstinence, where it is successfully implemented it is a fantastic way to minimise STDs and pregnancy. I don't think there's any such thing as "teaching abstinence", no more than you can teach "liking jazz" or "wanting to travel to Europe." Teens will either want to have sex or they won't, and what we should be teaching them to is how to express those preferences and defend them against peer pressure. The problem, of course, with abstinence is that while you're doing it you don't get to have sex. People for whom that sounds like a good thing need to re-examine their priorities. Why is it necessary to accept the "moral panic" position that sexual activity by teenagers and young adults is something to be avoided at any cost? Many teens can and do have fulfilling, exciting sex lives. Many other teens can't or don't want to. One thing of which we can be absolutely sure is that those preferences are going to have absolutely nothing to do with what their parents, teachers, and other authorities want. Teens will decide on their own whether to have sex or abstain. We should be equipping them with the tools such that those choices are safe and respected.
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Panda Member (Idle past 3741 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
hooah writes: The only secular reasons I have seen are the: "I don't want my children having sex because I don't want them to ever grow up" or "No-one is going to sleep with my daughter ever!". It is just my opinion that the only reason to teach it is religiously motivated unless there are actual secular reasons to teach it that I am unaware of. Parents want to pretend that teenagers are not sexually active (despite how sexually active they were).Maybe the secular reasons for supporting the bill are "wishful thinking" and "denial"? If I were you And I wish that I were you All the things I'd do To make myself turn blue
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
I don't think there's any such thing as "teaching abstinence", no more than you can teach "liking jazz" or "wanting to travel to Europe." I disagree. I'm not proposing we teach teens to not to want to have sex:
Teens will either want to have sex or they won't I'm suggesting we teach them what they should desire. Just that we explain openly and honestly what their options are.
...how to express those preferences and defend them against peer pressure. And that one viable option is abstinence from having sex, so that they have that tool available to defend against peer pressure and as a valid expression of their preferences.
The problem, of course, with abstinence is that while you're doing it you don't get to have sex. Yes, abstinence is psychologically difficult to pull off and its a hard sale, it certainly didn't fly with me when I was taught it. Which is why I agree that we should give information to teens for how to do it safely. This, incidentally, was my school's attitude to drugs as well: Don't do it, but here are some safety tips if you do (avoid re-using needles, have a sober person around to help avoid injury etc).
Why is it necessary to accept the "moral panic" position that sexual activity by teenagers and young adults is something to be avoided at any cost? It isn't. I'm not proposing a 'moral panic' position, and I'm not proposing that sex be avoided at all costs. Just that we teach them that having sex is risky, that the best way to avoid the risks is to avoid the activity, but if they do carry out the activity teach them how to do it as safely as possible.
Teens will decide on their own whether to have sex or abstain. We should be equipping them with the tools such that those choices are safe and respected. Agreed. But it's better that any decision they come to is a fully informed decision (or as fully as it is possible to be). Where they are advised that it is morally and socially acceptable to abstain as an aid against peer pressure etc (overt and otherwise).
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