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Author Topic:   Importance of Original Sin
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4369 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 256 of 1198 (640010)
11-06-2011 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by jaywill
11-06-2011 4:40 PM


Re: Creation Stories
I thought the Documentary Hypothesis was proposed by a man named Wellhausen. Who is Friedman ?
Were there two Documentary Hypothesises ?
Julius Wellhausen's main contribution may be seen as arranging the various JEDP authors chronologically, and so, placing them firmly within a coherent setting describing the evolution of Yisrael’s religious history as one of ever-increasing priestly power. And while numerous versions of the Documentary Hypothesis have been proposed by various scholars over the years, the terminology and insights contained within the extensive nature of the Wellhausen theory continue to provide the framework for most modern theories in describing the ToRaH’s origins.
Richard Elliott Friedman’s most well known for furthering the development of the Graf-Wellhausen theory and providing it with substantial evidences regarding textual criticisms. I’ll tell ya Jaywill, if you’re at all put off by the seemingly abrasive style of scholars such as Ehrman, you may find Friedman’s apparent sincerity a breath of fresh air. That has been my experience when introducing each of them to western apologists.
I highly recommend Friedman’s work entitled, The Hidden Book In the Bible. God willing, I hope you’ll search it out ..
One Love

I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.
Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by jaywill, posted 11-06-2011 4:40 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 257 of 1198 (640011)
11-06-2011 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Phat
11-06-2011 5:54 PM


Re: Its what we do,not what we are
It's comforting to be able to say that it's "sin nature" or "original sin" instead of having to say "it's my fault" isn't it,.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Phat, posted 11-06-2011 5:54 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Phat, posted 11-07-2011 11:15 AM jar has replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4369 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 258 of 1198 (640012)
11-06-2011 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Phat
11-06-2011 5:54 PM


I'll Gladly Pay You Tuesday ..
It seems to be human nature to avoid pain, and change often involves pain.
Another issue seems to be many often appear more willing to settle for two minas later, than pay one of ‘em now. I mean, even when we know pain’s inevitable and will indeed not be avoided; we find some way putting off ‘til Tuesday what could have been dealt with today. Which reminds me - I have to schedule a dentist appointment soon lol ..
One Love

I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.
Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Phat, posted 11-06-2011 5:54 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 259 of 1198 (640114)
11-07-2011 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by jar
11-06-2011 6:12 PM


Re: Its what we do,not what we are
jar writes:
It's comforting to be able to say that it's "sin nature" or "original sin" instead of having to say "it's my fault" isn't it,.
Even if it is my fault, i often justify based on entitlement....humility is a hard thing to accept. Few Americans will admit to being wrong in a national context as well....
And as an example, when you propose outlandish ideas to restore our "honor"...such as giving native americans back their land...which is a preposterous idea having no real basis in economic reality...you seem to elevate personal and national honor to a standard which most folks don't see. I mean, by correcting one wrong, you end up creating other wrongs. Booting one guy out of his house to give the house (or land) to another causes further problems. Just look at Israel in the Mid-East. Booting them out of certain areas, such as the Golan Heights, would almost certainly lead to war and an eventual nuclear exchange.
Same thing would happen if one tried to boot (mostly) white America off of ancient native land claims. Solving an injustice with another injustice rarely solves a problem....honor notwithstanding.
Carrying on the sins of our fathers is an unneeded step. Forgiveness allows a fresh start.
Edited by Phat, : add

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 Message 257 by jar, posted 11-06-2011 6:12 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by jar, posted 11-07-2011 11:39 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 260 of 1198 (640118)
11-07-2011 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Phat
11-07-2011 11:15 AM


Re: Its what we do,not what we are
Again, looks like just more justification for behaving badly and that is one reason Christianity has been so successful.
It's easy finding excuses for not doing what is right, isn't it?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Phat, posted 11-07-2011 11:15 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Phat, posted 11-08-2011 11:47 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 261 of 1198 (640300)
11-08-2011 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by jar
11-07-2011 11:39 AM


Re: Its what we do,not what we are
jar writes:
It's easy finding excuses for not doing what is right, isn't it?
OK. Getting back to your belief, you say that you believe that all of mankind has the knowledge of the basic difference between good and evil.
Thus, whenever we fail to do what is right, it is our own fault. Am I right?
(yup, its just that simple)
Perhaps you would thus agree in the concept of Original Discernment...given to humans to make us fully responsible for what we do and don't do...am I right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by jar, posted 11-07-2011 11:39 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by jar, posted 11-08-2011 12:14 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 262 of 1198 (640304)
11-08-2011 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Phat
11-08-2011 11:47 AM


Re: Its what we do,not what we are
Not quite.
I have absolutely no idea what "Original Discernment" would even mean.
We all have the capability of knowing right from wrong, just as we all have the capability of walking or thinking or talking, but it is a capability that must be used, practiced, learned to be useful.
If someone refuses to learn to walk, learn to talk, learn how to think then yes, they are responsible for the outcome.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Phat, posted 11-08-2011 11:47 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Phat, posted 11-08-2011 12:58 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 263 of 1198 (640312)
11-08-2011 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by jar
11-08-2011 12:14 PM


Original Sin and practical repentance
quote:
If someone refuses to learn to walk, learn to talk, learn how to think then yes, they are responsible for the outcome.
Again, using the example of honor and practicality regarding an issue such as honoring Indian Treaties, I might bring up the idea that doing whats right is weighed against the consequences. If my father didnt honor a treaty that has legal ramifications, yet I myself had nothing to do with either making or breaking the treaty...and if I and 500,000 other people would be displaced from our homes simply to restore integrity to 4000 claimants, for example...I would argue that the concept of what is right in such a case would not be so clear.
This may be straying a bit away from the importance of original sin...but the question I am asking is this: Should I be responsible for mistakes that my ancestors made? In this case, I think that the answer is no. Restoring honor for some causes insult to others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by jar, posted 11-08-2011 12:14 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by jar, posted 11-08-2011 1:19 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 264 of 1198 (640315)
11-08-2011 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Phat
11-08-2011 12:58 PM


Re: Original Sin and practical repentance
Yes, I know that your opinion is "No."
Yet you also claim "entitlement".
Had your wealth and land and culture and language and traditions and beliefs been stolen from you by force would you not want and deserve compensation?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Phat, posted 11-08-2011 12:58 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Phat, posted 11-08-2011 3:36 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 265 of 1198 (640322)
11-08-2011 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by jar
11-08-2011 1:19 PM


Definition of whats right,good, and fair
jar writes:
Had your wealth and land and culture and language and traditions and beliefs been stolen from you by force would you not want and deserve compensation?
Yes.
I would claim that I was a victim of unfairness. I would pray for justice.
I would struggle to forgive those who wronged me.
Yet what if they themselves were not responsible? What if they had nothing to do with the theft of my culture, material possessions, and tradition?
Original Sin may be a cop out. Humans are responsible for what they do. Justice should seek restitution and compensation.
The judge would be faced with taking from those who were not directly responsible for the theft, even if they did in fact benefit from it. Some sort of compromise would have to be reached. Snatching the land out from under the heirs of the thief would simply cause more problems.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by jar, posted 11-08-2011 1:19 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by jar, posted 11-08-2011 3:39 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 266 of 1198 (640324)
11-08-2011 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Phat
11-08-2011 3:36 PM


Re: Definition of whats right,good, and fair
Did they benefit from the acts?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Phat, posted 11-08-2011 3:36 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Phat, posted 11-08-2011 3:48 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 267 of 1198 (640325)
11-08-2011 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by jar
11-08-2011 3:39 PM


Re: Definition of whats right,good, and fair
jar writes:
Did they benefit from the acts?
Yes. Suppose that my grandfather stole some land that your family had owned for hundreds of years. You are poor, and cannot fight him in court, for he has the politicians on his side. Truly an evil grandfather. So he dies. My father is more understanding. He helps your family by giving you a place to stay, and helping you and your family in limited ways. Yet he still possesses your land. He dies, and passes the house on to me. Times have changed. I am not as wealthy as my father was, and find a new competitive world to deal with. In addition, I am not a prejudiced man, and respect all cultures and peoples. We all are trying to survive. Our ancestors made mistakes, as do we. so....an ambitious liberal comes along and tells you that you were treated unfairly by my ancestors.
We go to court and the court finds that you had prior claim to the land that I live on. What should the court decide? Do I have any right to survive? What if tossing me off the land ultimately costs me my life? What if my children suffer? How is my plight any different from your original plight? Who can claim any of the earth as their own, after all? Cant we all just get along?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by jar, posted 11-08-2011 3:39 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by jar, posted 11-08-2011 3:52 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 268 of 1198 (640327)
11-08-2011 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Phat
11-08-2011 3:48 PM


Re: Definition of whats right,good, and fair
It's fun making up stories to justify your behavior, isn't it?
And that in a nutshell is the importance of "Original Sin". It is a handy justification for mankind not doing what it should do.
Edited by jar, : No reason given.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Phat, posted 11-08-2011 3:48 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Phat, posted 11-08-2011 3:58 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 269 of 1198 (640328)
11-08-2011 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by jar
11-08-2011 3:52 PM


Re: Definition of whats right,good, and fair
My argument has merit. It is irrelevant who first owned the resources. The government has an obligation to provide for all people...not simply those who own things. While the native may well win in court and get back the forest and the water, all of society may need that water. All of society may need that forest.
Lets turn it around. Suppose I own some choice farmland. Perhaps there is a famine. My land is a resource that can help everyone. Do I have a right to jack up the price of grain and make a killing off of everyone's misery? Does the native American deserve to repossess Manhattan and boot trillions of dollars of commerce off his parcel?
Add by Edit: Perhaps in the case of the stolen lands, the government should take control of them and split the benefits among all of the people, perhaps giving the original owners a slightly higher share.
Edited by Phat, : added

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by jar, posted 11-08-2011 3:52 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by jar, posted 11-08-2011 6:19 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 270 of 1198 (640334)
11-08-2011 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by Phat
11-08-2011 3:58 PM


Re: Definition of whats right,good, and fair
It's fun finding ways to justify your behavior, isn't it?
And that in a nutshell is the importance of "Original Sin". It is a handy justification for mankind not doing what it should do.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Phat, posted 11-08-2011 3:58 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by jaywill, posted 11-09-2011 7:47 AM jar has replied

  
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