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Author Topic:   Importance of Original Sin
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 271 of 1198 (640400)
11-09-2011 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by jar
11-08-2011 6:19 PM


Re: Definition of whats right,good, and fair
I plan to show how Abraham's experience in having Isaac as opposed to Ishmeal implies that man's nature needed a salvation.
I also plan to show how circumcision implies that man's nature needed a salvation through "cutting off" something from the natural man.
I do not care to term this "Original Sin" particularly. But Genesis strongly implies something of the constitution of man was damaged by the act of Adam, and carried forward to all of his descendents.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by jar, posted 11-08-2011 6:19 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Panda, posted 11-09-2011 8:35 AM jaywill has not replied
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Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 272 of 1198 (640404)
11-09-2011 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by jaywill
11-09-2011 7:47 AM


Re: Definition of whats right,good, and fair
jaywill writes:
Its nothing compared to Atheism when talking about justifying behavior and not doing what one should do.
That's an odd thing to say to a theist...

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by jaywill, posted 11-09-2011 7:47 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 273 of 1198 (640406)
11-09-2011 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by jaywill
11-09-2011 7:47 AM


Re: Definition of whats right,good, and fair
Besides being just a really silly comment, what does that have to do with the topic?
Also, I would imagine that the average Atheist is at least as moral as the average Christian and in most cases, likely more moral.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by jaywill, posted 11-09-2011 7:47 AM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Phat, posted 11-10-2011 11:08 AM jar has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 274 of 1198 (640482)
11-10-2011 7:05 AM


I agree that the comment I made does not help the discussion. I will erase it.
Discussion is better than cracks. Sorry.

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 275 of 1198 (640510)
11-10-2011 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by jar
11-09-2011 8:53 AM


Re: Definition of whats right,good, and fair
jar writes:
I would imagine that the average Atheist is at least as moral as the average Christian and in most cases, likely more moral.
What keeps the "average Christian" from morality?
Lets look at 1 Corinthians for a moment.(yes, I have read it)
We do not know for sure who the author is, though many believe that it was Paul. You always say that content matters more than source anyway, so lets question the content of what is being said.
2:4 writes:
My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.
Logic, reason, and reality suggest that human wisdom is all we have. What then does the author mean to suggest?
1 Corinthians 2:6 writes:
We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Was Jesus killed due to a simple misunderstanding?
1 Corinthians 2:10 writes:
these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
Websters writes:
discern \di-sern, -zern\ vb 1 : to detect with the eyes : distinguish 2 : discriminate 3 : to come to know or recognize mentally discernible adj discernment n
Don't get me wrong...I'm not trying to bury you in a quote mine. I will allow that I must test everything I am taught through the lens of logic, reason, and reality. I don't simply accept what the Bible says, and will even admit that I seek to justify my behavior through a scriptural lens...though often aware of the standard of right and wrong. When I earlier questioned you regarding the responsibility of the US in regards to Native land claims, I was testing your response...though you told me to look inward at myself to see if I was justifying doing what one wanted to do versus doing what one should do.
What does the author of Corinthians mean when he declares:
quote:
But we have the mind of Christ.
Do you think that this applies to you? Is it a silly question? Is it relevant in today's modern society dealing with real world problems?
Edited by Phat, : fixed quote
Edited by Phat, : thought i fixed it..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by jar, posted 11-09-2011 8:53 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by jar, posted 11-10-2011 11:42 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 276 of 1198 (640529)
11-10-2011 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by Phat
11-10-2011 11:08 AM


Re: Definition of whats right,good, and fair
And that relates to the topic in what way?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Phat, posted 11-10-2011 11:08 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Phat, posted 11-10-2011 1:02 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 277 of 1198 (640552)
11-10-2011 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by jar
11-10-2011 11:42 AM


Re: Definition of whats right,good, and fair
Doing whats right and wrong means one has the mind of Christ. Quite simply, would Jesus advise 20th century Americans to give up their land and houses in order to honor some ancient treaty? What would Jesus think of the idea of Original Sin, anyway?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by jar, posted 11-10-2011 11:42 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by jar, posted 11-10-2011 1:07 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 278 of 1198 (640554)
11-10-2011 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Phat
11-10-2011 1:02 PM


Re: Definition of whats right,good, and fair
Jesus was a Jew and not a Christian and so would most likely have held the Jewish position on the subject. In Judaism there is no concept comparable to the "Original Sin", "Once Saved" or "Born Again" products marketed in Christianity.
AbE:
I also need to say that a statement like "Doing whats right and wrong means one has the mind of Christ." is just complete crap an of no informational content or value.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Phat, posted 11-10-2011 1:02 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Phat, posted 11-10-2011 8:19 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 279 of 1198 (640589)
11-10-2011 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by jar
11-10-2011 1:07 PM


Re: Definition of whats right,good, and fair
I meant to say Knowing...not Doing. Besides, you never answered my question. What do you speculate Jesus would have done?
I don't expect Him to necessarily favor the Indians.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by jar, posted 11-10-2011 1:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by jar, posted 11-10-2011 8:38 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 280 of 1198 (640590)
11-10-2011 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Phat
11-10-2011 8:19 PM


Re: Definition of whats right,good, and fair
That has nothing to do with the topic, but do you honestly think that Jesus would support the robbers and not the robbed?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Phat, posted 11-10-2011 8:19 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Phat, posted 11-10-2011 10:48 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 281 of 1198 (640612)
11-10-2011 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by jar
11-10-2011 8:38 PM


Re: Definition of whats right,good, and fair
jar writes:
That has nothing to do with the topic, but do you honestly think that Jesus would support the robbers and not the robbed?
The robbers are long dead, as are the robbed. This is a matter to settle between descendants. I have no legal obligation to settle my fathers debts. When he dies, his debts die with him. Right?
I am no lawyer. and no, this is getting off topic.
jar writes:
And that in a nutshell is the importance of "Original Sin". It is a handy justification for mankind not doing what it should do.
If my father commits a sin, am I responsible for it? Who determines what one should do? I am arguing that prior sins in my family are not my responsibility to rectify. We may well prosecute Adolf Hitler were he alive, but we couldn't very well execute his kids now could we? My point is that just as I am not responsible for the sins of my father, I am not responsible for the sin of Adam.
===============================================
Admin Phat: Admittedly I too was off topic.
Any topic in Bible Study needs scriptural support.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : self sdmonishment

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goldenlightArchangel
Member (Idle past 1153 days)
Posts: 583
From: Roraima Peak
Joined: 02-11-2004


Message 282 of 1198 (653674)
02-23-2012 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
09-12-2011 8:23 PM


There was never an alleged original sin but an initial choice
-
jar writes:
It is only those things that got passed down and not one of them deals with Original Sin.
-
On a time when the meaning of the word death was not expressed by the use of one specific word, and the term to die was not known yet by the first hearers, there was the ancient term for death: to return to the dust of the ground, which was utilized to describe a literal fall of man, as in the original sense of the word pecare: to precipitate literally, having nothing to do with fall in the sense of spiritual or moral fall.
It was only later that the sense of spiritual or moral fall was added to the versions that were made for religion and beliefs, and then to the word pecare another meaning was added: to sin. However, in countries that speak Latin languages, when the small fruits of a tree do precipitate and fall, people call them pecados (precipitated ones).
People make the choice of paying a price for food and bread and no one calls it punishment. Even so the words of Genesis as originally written, spoken to the ones who ate incompatible food, refer to a price to be paid in case one keeps on choosing that option.
There was never an alleged original sin but an initial choice: Regardless of whoever first did or whoever continues making that same choice until the day that is called Today, that initial choice is what originates a gradual precipitation and fall to the dust of the ground as highlighted in the paraphrases of Wisdom as originally written which quotes the hidden words of Yhwh:
And they counted not on a recompense of justice nor discern the innocent souls' reward. Neither did they know the hidden words of Yahweh:
For Yahweh formed man to be imperishable; the likeness of Yhwh's own nature (s)he made him.
But for [free choice in the] *despise of the evil, death was left [as an option] for the world, and they who choose the evil experience it.
-
* despise of what is evil — The term despise of the evil was substituted with 'envy of the devil' in the translations that were left to belong to the ministry of the eighth kingdom.
They who said among themselves, thinking not aright:
"Brief and troublous is our lifetime; neither is there any remedy for man's dying;
For our lifetime is the passing of a shadow; and our dying cannot be deferred because it is fixed with a seal.
Let us condemn [a man] to *a death that does not dignify;
* that does not dignify: a death that could be avoided by listening to the words that initiate the immortality. The condemnation is not seeing nor hearing but believing in spirits of men by not verifying for consistency of mastercopies that were left to the doctrines of faiths of the earth.
When an old levee breaks or when a person dies by old age, there is the procedure of weeping and moaning according to the habits of the old levees who teach: that one must make a seventh day mass and pray for the dead. However, every prayer ritual and the practice of praying for the dead are teachings not found in the book of life of the lamb. On this, if your levee will break because of giving credit: the guarantee that comes from who believes that your body will have to become dust of the ground anyway: On that day, cryin’ won’t help you. Prayer won’t do you no good.
A man who is like a mountain doesn't have the habit of going anywhere nor can be convinced beforehand to leave his body that is home and tabernacle made for the spirit, unless an old levee of souls has got what it takes to cause him to precipitate believing that he will have to leave his home and tabernacle of his body:
A doctrinal image from the eighth reign (State of Vatican)
in the copies made by scribes, copists and translators for the book of Genesis
built upon the doctrine of the open sepulchre
For fifteen centuries a mixed cup overflowed. Another version for the book of Genesis and all the rest of the books of scriptures was built for the usage of who ever identifies himself with religion, who is told what to do by the man, and for those who take advantage from a circumstance of gloom for a need of giving credit, so that they might say that, believing, they are creditors of merit and salvation. The image and semblance of scribes and pharisees is a sequence of camouflages made for the saved ones who visualize their own open sepulchres, empty awaiting for them.
To camouflage the Word — To make believe that by the living Word the Human body was formed to have as design and plan: to become dust of the ground since the words from the Initial Time, about eating solely what is compatible for the body to stay free from death, would not be valid during the day that is called Today. The first words spoken to man after the Human body was formed would have ceased from being eternal words in these days.
To camouflage the people's design and plan — To make believe that after the alleged (moral or spiritual) fall of [the] man, all the rest of the people should consider themselves fallen and consequently punished because of the choices made by a corruptible man.
Copists, translators, hebraists and doctorates on Modern Hebrew, having the keys of the books of the ancients, hid them: nor did they enter, and those who desired to enter, they permitted them not. When examining the field of copies made by the scribes and doctorates for the book of Genesis one needs to be prudent as [when dealing with] serpents and, at the same time, innocent as doves.
Dove's eyes do focus on images with a sharper vision.
From the fruits of the solid trees you can freely eat, however, you can not eat from the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil [the fruit of the olive tree and the olive oil] because in the time you eat from it you will be [gradually] dying.
This is about possibility in regards to the limit of the body: it is not possible to eat incompatible food and at the same time, not be doing a gradual fall to the dust of the ground. The word from the Initial Time does not speak about a law that can be broken nor a line that can be trespassed. It is about an extreme limit one can not go further. If it was possible to go beyond the line then who ever trespassed it would not die.
Indeed the words that initiate, as originally written in the book of the ancients, have nothing to do with giving an order or commandment since orders are forgotten and commandments can be constantly broken. To verify and ascertain whether the Human body was made to remain free from death or that the aging process and the death that results from it can be avoided is doing the experiment of ceasing the comsumption of incompatible nourishments.
-

This message is a reply to:
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goldenlightArchangel
Member (Idle past 1153 days)
Posts: 583
From: Roraima Peak
Joined: 02-11-2004


Message 283 of 1198 (653694)
02-23-2012 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by jaywill
11-09-2011 7:47 AM


The religion's lie: people should consider themselves fallen and punished
-
jaywill writes:
Genesis strongly implies something of the constitution of man was damaged by the act of Adam, and carried forward to all of his descendents.
-
That is what religion and doctrines of faiths want you to believe, that you were made to die, your dying bed would be ready and a new sepulcher would be open awaiting for you.
quote:
..... to make believe that after the alleged (moral or spiritual) fall of [the] man, all the rest of the people should consider themselves fallen and consequently punished because of the choices made by a corruptible man.
-
Immortality is initiated when the Human body is nourished only with fruits, the ones from compatible solid trees, that keeps the medulla oblongata and the brain as new and the body free from aging process.
When one abstains from digesting incompatible foods the result is that all nutrient substances that are intrinsically Human, such as calcium, hormones and proteins, would not need at any moment to be set apart and decomposed for the production of the precise type of gastric juice that is required to digest dead flesh and regular food.
The ultimate cause of death by old age — For a body composed of nutrients from the dust of the earth it is not proper to digest the same type of nutrients with which the Human body was formed rather than the nutrients that are produced by the compatible solid trees that were made specially for this purpose.
You are what you eat and if a person does a gradual and continual approach to the dust of the ground, nourishing from regular food which is composed of the same nutrients from the earth with which the Human body was made, then that is what the body will gradually become: dust of the earth.
From the dust — The nutrients of incompatible food come from the dust of the ground.
From the solid tree — Nutrients of compatible fruits do not come from the dust of the ground. They are filtered essences produced by the solid tree itself. The extension of her trunk is made up of millions of little bitty tubes that do filter and separate the nutrients out. On this, the fruit of the solid tree is a nutrient property given exclusively by the tree.
The Human body does not die of natural causes — The term made out of the dust of the earth clears up that the body was formed with the same nutrient properties that nurture all plants of the earth, and for this reason it was not made to digest regular food or dead flesh without a gradual decomposition of living substances that are intrinsically and specifically Human. The aging process and the death that results from it can be avoided since they occur because one can not eat incompatible food and at the same time not die gradually.
-
Edited by CrazyDiamond7, : update

This message is a reply to:
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AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 284 of 1198 (653827)
02-24-2012 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by goldenlightArchangel
02-23-2012 3:57 PM


Re: The religion's lie: people should consider themselves fallen and punished
CrazyDiamond 7, while your lengthy posts are sincere, they need to be corroborated by some sort of tie-in with Biblical Scripture.
Please refrain from further postings unless you can specifically link to the scriptures which you believe corroborate your posts. Thanks.

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  • This message is a reply to:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 285 of 1198 (708729)
    10-13-2013 11:22 AM
    Reply to: Message 3 by jar
    09-12-2011 6:13 PM


    Re: Enough of this OLD sin, bring me some NEW sin
    A question that might be asked is this:
    Was Paul himself a man of integrity who understood the charge laid down by Jesus Christ?
    Was he chosen by God to be the Apostle to the Gentiles?
    Is what Paul actually said different than what is now marketed?
    I suppose that I am asking you whether you believe that Paul was himself a con artist or was he in touch with what God wanted for humanity at that point in time........

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 3 by jar, posted 09-12-2011 6:13 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 286 by jar, posted 10-13-2013 1:32 PM Phat has replied

      
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