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Author Topic:   What the KJV Bible says about the Noah Flood
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 259 of 306 (640764)
11-12-2011 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by ICANT
11-12-2011 11:41 AM


Re: look at what the God characters say
quote:

No contest. It means each generation can read as they percieve in their generation, while also adhering to one of the commands NOT TO ADD OR SUBTRACT ANYTHING FROM THESE LAWS.

Where can I find that command recorded in the Bible?


One of the most known laws, and what seperated Christianity from its mother religion, and rendered the Jews the most hated throughout history:

quote:
Not to add to the commandments of the Torah, whether in the Written Law or in its interpretation received by tradition (Deut. 13:1)

Mysteriously, none were able to add anything: the world still turns by the Hebrew laws exclusively, to the extent any country or institution which does not follow these laws are seen as outside the law [lawless]. Not a single law was accepted by humanity's institutions from the Gospels or Quran!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by ICANT, posted 11-12-2011 11:41 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by ICANT, posted 11-13-2011 2:14 AM IamJoseph has responded

    
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 260 of 306 (640766)
11-12-2011 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by ICANT
11-12-2011 11:41 AM


Re: look at what the God characters say
quote:
You don't even have the faintest idea what a cubit is in length.

These measurements are not subject to confusion, as you have done in a number of posts thus far. The measurements of the house which contained the Arc, for example, are verifiable in the historical, specifc writings of Josephus and the temple scroll found in the dead sea scroll package. Example measurements of walls, pillars and porches of the Jerusalem temple given in cubits [roughly a foot; elbow to fingers]:

quote:
1Kings 7/2. For he built the house of the forest of Lebanon: the length thereof was a hundred cubits, and the breadth thereof fifty cubits, and the height thereof thirty cubits, upon four rows of cedar pillars, with cedar beams upon the pillars. 6 And he made the porch of pillars: the length thereof was fifty cubits, and the breadth thereof thirty cubits; and a porch before them; and pillars and thick beams before them.

quote:

The humans could survive in less than 10,000 cubit feet. In fact I know of 12 adults surviving in less than 2,000 cubic feet.


And all the life forms of the earth as well, right!? No, the whole of humans could not fit in that space and such a view is quite bizarre. Even a can of sardines does not allow such a view.

quote:
So give me the kinds and number of animals you believe was on the ark and I will see what size ark was need to keep them safe.

This is already given, which you keep denying in every post. This is the count of humans who entered the arc, in accordance to the advocation given to Noah:

quote:
1 And the LORD said unto Noah: 'Come thou and all thy house into the ark. 7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

quote:

Why couldn't all the life forms on Earth be released from the ark?


You tell us!? I gave you an account of those that went in.

quote:

Nor could the arc have landed nearby from where it started.

Why couldn't the ark have landed anywhere God wanted it to land?


That does not make sense. You are refuting given reasoning and statements with a generic premise of what God can do. How about God does not change his mind?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by ICANT, posted 11-12-2011 11:41 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by ICANT, posted 11-13-2011 1:51 AM IamJoseph has not yet responded

    
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 263 of 306 (640783)
11-13-2011 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by ICANT
11-13-2011 2:14 AM


Re: look at what the God characters say
quote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not to add to the commandments of the Torah, whether in the Written Law or in its interpretation received by tradition (Deut. 13:1)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have no idea what you are quoting.


It says not to add to the Hebrew laws. It is one of the 613 commandments in the Hebrew bible, and you asked for proof.

quote:

The only place I know of a scripture that comes close in in:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This has nothing to do with the Torah. In fact it only has to do with the book of Revelation.


I don't think so. The precedence factor rules. It is blatant the Gospels negated many commandments, not because of any revelation, but because Christianity cannot sustain itself if it did not do so. Divine man and image worship caused great existential issues for the Jews with a host of nations. IMHO, the premise of an indescribable and indefinable Creator is vindicated as correct today.

quote:

Now you keep telling me that the copyist could not add to or take away from the text concerning the flood or anything else in the Torah.

Yet you change the size of the ark making it half the size it was and you leave a lot of critters off the ark.


The size of the arc aligns only with one large family and their domestic life forms. I changed nothing.

quote:

You also state that all the dry earth was not covered with water when the text declares that all the high hills under the whole heavens was covered with water.

You are quoting selective half sentences which cntradict other pivotal verses.

quote:

You state only domestic animals of Noah's household was on the ark, when the text declares 2 of all flesh that had the breath of life went into the ark to Noah.

"Of Noah's household".

quote:

So don't tell me no body can add to the text or take any thing away from the text because you sure can.


Absolutely I am saying that. Why do you think Judaism and Christianity are different religions!?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by ICANT, posted 11-13-2011 2:14 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by ICANT, posted 11-13-2011 3:21 PM IamJoseph has responded

    
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 266 of 306 (640864)
11-13-2011 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Phat
11-13-2011 3:30 PM


Re: look at what the Atheist characters say
quote:
Wow! Moses never existed? This blows me away!

Lets be fair here. They said this of King David, who lived a mere 250 years after Moses. Then there was the Tel Dan discovery - and those so-called scholars have never recovered from their shame. There is more evidences [as opposed hard proof] of Moses than Jesus and every name listed in the NT!

Here's more what atheists don't say of the Hebrew bible:

It is the first alphabetical book; it introduced the universe as finite [there was a 'beginning']; the world turns by Hebrew laws exclusively [none come from any other source!]; Evolution comes from Genesis [the first listing of life form categories]; we have no 'NAME' older than Adam; the oldest active calendar is the Hebrew [5772 years]; it introduced Creationism and Monotheism - world and universe altering equations; over 70% of the Hebrew bible is scientifically proven.

A lie by omission is - surprise, surprise! - a lie.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Phat, posted 11-13-2011 3:30 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-14-2011 6:28 AM IamJoseph has responded

    
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 267 of 306 (640866)
11-13-2011 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by ICANT
11-13-2011 3:21 PM


LET THE TRUTH SET YOU FREE - OR EXPOSE A LIE.
quote:
Can you read English?

What ails thee o knight of arms, alone and palely loitering?

You denied the law not to add or subtract as one of the commandments in the Hebrew bible, and I produced it for you - with indexed reference where it appears in one of the five books of Moses. Also, I pointed out this was the fundamental cause of the break between Christianity and Judaism. Then I pointed to you, what you quote as Gospel is incorrect, namely it is in fact from the Hebrew bible - and that the precedent factor rules.

A lie by omission is - surprise, surprise - a lie.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by ICANT, posted 11-13-2011 3:21 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by ICANT, posted 11-15-2011 11:08 AM IamJoseph has responded

    
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 269 of 306 (640905)
11-14-2011 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by Butterflytyrant
11-14-2011 6:28 AM


Re: look at what the Atheist characters say
quote:

called scholars have never recovered from their shame.

You have said this a few times in various posts. At one stage there was no evidence of King David, so the scholars assumed there was no King David. The other option would be to assume that King David existed when there was no evidence. Do you see a problem with that?


Yes, I do see a big problem with those scholars. There was loads of evidence [tho no hard proof]; their pronouncements were short sighted and it ignored blatant indicators; they had no merit in making their statements and using terms as myth. How wrong were they!

quote:

Then after the discovery of the Tel Dan Stelle, there was a fair bit of controversy with regards to the translation of the text. The concensus is now that the words 'Israel' and 'house of david' do appear on the Stelle. As this is new evidence, the opinions of the scholars changed. There is no shame in waiting until there is evidence before supporting a position. There is also no shame in changing your position after new evidence is found. It is called intellectual honesty. I know you are unfamiliar with the concept but try to understand it.


There is no shame in being genuinely wrong - but there was too fast a gun off the hip here; obviously agenda based and biased. The so called scholars did not just say there was no proof; they ignored loads of evidences and indicators and used words such as total myth. You are white washing their unscholarly behaviour.

quote:

There is more evidences [as opposed hard proof] of Moses than Jesus and every name listed in the NT!

More evidence of Moses than every name listed in the NT? What about Ramesses? Or Augustus Caesar?


I referred to the figures of Christianity, such as Jesus, the apostles, Mary, a Roman trial, Judas, etc - there is no proof of any of these figures, despite this was in relatively a far more advanced, modern time when writings was commonplace. Yet you target the Hebrew bible, where some 70% is already proven of a most ancient period - why is that?

quote:

If you want a religious figure with more evidence you cant go past Sathya Sai Baba the Hindu mystic. He has hundreds of thousands of living people who testify to witnessing his miracles. That is hundreds of thousands of contemporary eyewitness accounts of events such as levitation (both indoors and outdoors), bilocation, physical disappearances, changing granite into sugar candy, changing water into another drink, changing water into gasoline, producing objects on demand, changing the color of his gown while wearing it, multiplying food, healing acute and chronic diseases, appearing in visions and dreams, making different fruits appear on any tree hanging from actual stems, controlling the weather, physically transforming into various deities and physically emitting brilliant light. (Source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sathya_Sai_Baba)

Not my call; I have not researched this.

quote:
this is not some bronze age book that is a copy of a copy (of a copy of a copy etc) with multiple different versions. These are eyewitness accounts.

If you can evidence a 3,200 year figure as with David anyplace else in a writings - I will appreciate it. But I see this as quite difficult - aside from the Pharoahs very few examples are possible!

quote:

Sathya Sai Baba beats Moses and Jesus combined on this count.


Without disrespect of any revered figures, there is none more revered than Moses: by period of time; impact; and cencus [2B Christians; 1.5B Muslims; 14M Jews]. Do the maths - this beats JC, MO, Buddha, all others.

quote:

Great, so Judaism may have introduced the idea of one god. Is one god better than many gods? A lot of people hold the position that no gods at all are better than one god. Why do you think coming up with monotheism is an achievement?

There are only two possibilities here. Monotheism is one of them; many gods are not one of them. Not bad!

quote:
You are correct in saying that the Old Testament has changed the world, but for the majority of people, it has been a negative change. Congratulations.

The negative stuff can only be pointed at two religions, both in contradiction of each other, and who have commited the gravest crimes throughout their history. Nothing to do with the Hebrew bible which measures all equally and by their deeds only, giving none special treatment, regardless of their beliefs. This is not a negative thing.

quote:

The universe has not been impacted in any way by the Old Testament. This claim is ridiculous. Why do you think that the Hebrew laws changed the universe? The important ones are seen elsewhere at earlier times eg The Code of Hammurabi or developed independantly of the influence of Judaism eg. early Chinese law codes, Native American laws etc. How has any of your claims changed any part of the universe outside of this one planet?

Hamurabi is post Mosaic and steeped in head bashing dieties. The world turns by the 613 Hebrew laws - exclusively. Sounds unreasonable, but check it out.

quote:

...over 70% of the Hebrew bible is scientifically proven.

Pure conjecture. Not only do you not know that this is true, there is no way for you to know if this could be true. I have questioned you on it before and you have not been able to support the claim.

Can you provide the complete list of facts that are in the Old Testament? This would be the starting point to establishing what percentage of the facts have been scientifically proven. You dont have this vital piece of information. This claim is pure fantasy. You imagining something does not make it a fact.


Outside of the FX miracles, almost all the historical items are proven or evidenced. No scripture can match this.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-14-2011 6:28 AM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-14-2011 11:15 AM IamJoseph has responded

    
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 271 of 306 (640961)
11-14-2011 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by Butterflytyrant
11-14-2011 11:15 AM


Re: look at what the Atheist characters say
quote:
Notice how in your post you make a whole heap of claims with no supporting evience of any type. The only thing this suggests is that there is no supporting evidence.

Actually, I provided evidence for 'everything' you asked for, with no omissions any place.

quote:

Loads of evidence prior to the discovery of the stelle of the existence of King David? Lets take a look at that claim -

To most Israelis it is axiomatic that the celebrations for the 3,000th anniversary of the conquest of Jerusalem by King David mark a real and tangible event; but this is far from certain.


There was no conquest! Jerusalem is a Hebrew name, situated in the original Israelite land where they were incepted. My history book says the Jews have never occupied another peoples' land in all their 4000 year history; this is true even when one becomes desperate to go back to 3000 years. My history book says the reverse of those who make such charges. Your omissions keep piling up.

Are you even aware that land cannot be given to Jews even for free: there is a command NOT TO TAKE EVEN A CUBIT OF ANOTHER PEOPLE'S LAND. This is why the Jews did not accept massive chunks of land in Africa and Australia, returning only to their tiny, barren land they came from. They never robbed Pakistan, Kashmir, Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, all those Gulf states, Krakow or Moscow. Egypt is land stolen from the Copts; Lebanon is land stolen from the Christians; yet no one bothers. Maybe we should get some Jews there - that will impact! All 22 Regime states are fictions, created by Britain for 30 barrels of oil, constituting a real, non-virtual Judas. And who is going to take Britain to task - the Pope!? The greatest Post-W.W.II crime is the corruption of the Balfour and the transfering of the name Palestinian onto Muslims - a name held exclusively by Jews for 2000 years. These are covert, new forms of genocide via Heil Hitler salutes at the UN. It is also why Eurabia is happening!

quote:

The biblical account of the capture of the city is the only one we have, and in the opinion of most modern scholars, the Bible is not an entirely reliable historical document. Corroborating evidence is required, and some indeed exists; but it is not conclusive. When all the available information has been assembled, the most that can be said is that there was probably an Israelite ruler called David, who made Jerusalem his capital sometime in the tenth century bce. However, the precise date cannot be determined, and consequently there is no way of knowing exactly when the anniversary falls.


David established Jerusalem on Israeli land: not in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia - new states which never existed 100 years ago; stolen from surrounding peoples. A small portion used for Jerusalem, a hill top, was purchased from the Jebusites, who were allies. In return they were given protection from outside invaders. The Hebrew bible is the world's most reliable scripture. The dates can be established via relics discovered and align with the writings.

quote:

Until very recently, there was no evidence outside the Bible for the existence of King David.


There was evidence. Jerusalem; a temple once existing; numerous wars with other nations; the conquest of the Philistines; the Psalms; the references to David from some 30 prophetic books; a geneology listing. The scholars were stupid, agenda based and proven so.

quote:

So according to the State of Israel, until the finding of the Stelle there was "no evidence outside the Bible for the existence of King David". What constitutes the "loads of evidence" that you claim existed that the State of Israel was unaware of?


There was no proof, as opposed evidence. It must be remembered the land of the Jews were occupied by invading peoples, including Christians and Muslims, and these have a notorious history of destroying evidence, and spreading horrific falsehoods around the world - all based on 'belief'. A billion Muslims today hold that Abraham, Moses and David were Muslims, with no mention of his race and religion whatsoever. This when both Islam and the Arab race never existed in David's time. Muslims have no cionnection with Ishmael - check it out! Muslims also have no connection with the term Palestinian - check that out too. These false histories were promoted by European Popes as a covert genocide of the Jews!

quote:
There was merit in their statements that King David did not exist. There was no evidence to say that he did exist.

There was no merit; this has now been proven. There is no merit that Jesus or any of the apostles ever existed. Your omissions are becoming taller than you.

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is more evidences [as opposed hard proof] of Moses than Jesus and every name listed in the NT!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

what you actually menat to say was -

There is more evidences [as opposed hard proof] of Moses than Jesus and every name listed in the NT apart from all of the names that refute this statement.

Gotcha.


There is no proof or evidence of the Gospel figures. Zilch. Yet 2B super advanced and progressive people fully believe this. It seems this belief does not require proof - one of the most mysterious factors within humanity's history.

quote:

So you have not researched one of the most famous Hindu mystics that ever lived. A mystic who outperformed Jesus in regards to miracles with many current, living eyewitneses. You are unaware of this man, yet seem to believe you have made an educated decision with regards to your faith. He out performs Moses and Jesus combined. I get the feeling from most of your posts that if you dont know about something, it does not exist.


I admire many Indian cultures and their generous attitudes to others. However, miracles which are based on frivolous actions do not impress me, and these always smack of slight of hand. When a miracle has impacts on humanity and for all generations, such as to establish premises of Liberty and inalienable human rights - those have credibility. The reports I've heard of your mystic have been most negative, even exposing fraud, however I have not checked up on this matter.

quote:
The list of pharoah names refutes your position but you dont count them because???

These are already listed as older in the Hebrew bible. I say very few can evidence a 3,200 year figure as historical; the Hebrew bible does. This gives credibility to a host of gfigures listed in the Hebrew, and which have cross-references by other nations. Your the one not acknowledging the merit of the Hebrew; many also calling it fables - the same who accept numerous figures from the Gospels with zero credibility. This tells me humanity is on a depraved path, upholing a totally unproven and falsified history, then causing mass murders on that premise.

quote:

The Sumerian Kinglist has dozens of names on it. There are not one, not two or three but sixteen known copies containing sections of this list. The oldest four sources used when discussing this list date from 2000BCE, 1817 BCE, 1712 BCE, 1250 BCE.


That is still few, and most of them are in dispute. Hamurabi is in dispute of his datings, as are a host of Greek figures.

quote:

Nice attempt to shift the goal posts. My comment was about evidence for proof of existence, not who was revered the most. Lots of kids love Santa, the Easter bunny, the tooth fairy, dorathy the dinosaur etc. This does not prove that they exist.


Santa has no proof of existence. Moses gave us hard copy laws which turn the world today. What did Santa give us? We should not look for hard proof of Moses - the text denies this possibility.

quote:
How many contemporary eyewitness accounts do you have for any of the actions of Moses?

3 Million Israelites and a mixed multitude of other peoples. This is described in the first scientific cencus, with sub-total of tribes, gender and age groups. Now if one wants to present a lie - they surely would not say millions were witness - would you?

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-14-2011 11:15 AM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded

    
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 272 of 306 (640962)
11-14-2011 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by Butterflytyrant
11-14-2011 11:15 AM


Re: look at what the Atheist characters say
quote:
Notice how in your post you make a whole heap of claims with no supporting evience of any type. The only thing this suggests is that there is no supporting evidence.

Actually, I provided evidence for 'everything' you asked for, with no omissions anyplace.

quote:

Loads of evidence prior to the discovery of the stelle of the existence of King David? Lets take a look at that claim -

To most Israelis it is axiomatic that the celebrations for the 3,000th anniversary of the conquest of Jerusalem by King David mark a real and tangible event; but this is far from certain.


There was no conquest! Jerusalem is a Hebrew name, situated in the original Israelite land where they were incepted. My history book says the Jews have never occupied another peoples' land in all their 4000 year history; this is true even when one becomes desperate to go back to 3000 years. My history bookn says the reverse of those who make such charges. Your omissions keep piling up.

quote:

The biblical account of the capture of the city is the only one we have, and in the opinion of most modern scholars, the Bible is not an entirely reliable historical document. Corroborating evidence is required, and some indeed exists; but it is not conclusive. When all the available information has been assembled, the most that can be said is that there was probably an Israelite ruler called David, who made Jerusalem his capital sometime in the tenth century bce. However, the precise date cannot be determined, and consequently there is no way of knowing exactly when the anniversary falls.


David established Jerusalem on Israeli land: not in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia - new states which never existed 100 years ago; stolen from surrounding peoples. A small portion used for Jerusalem, a hill top, was purchased from the Jebusites, who were allies. In return they were given protection from outside invaders. The Hebrew bible is the world's most reliable scripture. The dates can be established via relics discovered and align with the writings.

quote:

Until very recently, there was no evidence outside the Bible for the existence of King David.


There was evidence. Jerusalem; a temple once existing; numerous wars with other nations; the conquest of the Philistines; the Psalms; the references to David from some 30 prophetic books; a geneology listing. The scholars were stupid, agenda based and proven so.

quote:

So according to the State of Israel, until the finding of the Stelle there was "no evidence outside the Bible for the existence of King David". What constitutes the "loads of evidence" that you claim existed that the State of Israel was unaware of?


There was no proof, as opposed evidence. It must be remembered the land of the Jews were occupied by invading peoples, including Christians and Muslims, and these have a notorious history of destroying evidence, and spreading horrific falsehoods around the world - all based on 'belief'. A billion Muslims today hold that Abraham, Moses and David were Muslims, with no mention of his race and religion whatsoever. This when both Islam and the Arab race never existed in David's time. Muslims have no cionnection with Ishmael - check it out! Muslims also have no connection with the term Palestinian - check that out too. These false histories were promoted by European Popes as a covert genocide of the Jews!

quote:
There was merit in their statements that King David did not exist. There was no evidence to say that he did exist.

There was no merit; this has now been proven. There is no merit that Jesus or any of the apostles ever existed. Your omissions are becoming taller than you.

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is more evidences [as opposed hard proof] of Moses than Jesus and every name listed in the NT!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

what you actually menat to say was -

There is more evidences [as opposed hard proof] of Moses than Jesus and every name listed in the NT apart from all of the names that refute this statement.

Gotcha.


There is no proof or evidence of the Gospel figures. Zilch. Yet 2B super advanced and progressive people fully believe this. It seems this belief does not require proof - one of the most mysterious factors within humanity's history.

quote:

So you have not researched one of the most famous Hindu mystics that ever lived. A mystic who outperformed Jesus in regards to miracles with many current, living eyewitneses. You are unaware of this man, yet seem to believe you have made an educated decision with regards to your faith. He out performs Moses and Jesus combined. I get the feeling from most of your posts that if you dont know about something, it does not exist.


I admire many Indian cultures and their generous attitudes to others. However, miracles which are based on frivolous actions do not impress me, and these always smack of slight of hand. When a miracle has impacts on humanity and for all generations, such as to establish premises of Liberty and inalienable human rights - those have credibility. The reports I've heard of your mystic have been most negative, even exposing fraud, however I have not checked up on this matter.

quote:
The list of pharoah names refutes your position but you dont count them because???

These are already listed as older in the Hebrew bible. I say very few can evidence a 3,200 year figure as historical; the Hebrew bible does. This gives credibility to a host of figures listed in the Hebrew, and which have cross-references by other nations. Your the one not acknowledging the merit of the Hebrew; many also calling it fables - the same who accept numerous figures from the Gospels with zero credibility. This tells me humanity is on a depraved path, upholing a totally unproven and falsified history, then causing mass murders on that premise.

quote:

The Sumerian Kinglist has dozens of names on it. There are not one, not two or three but sixteen known copies containing sections of this list. The oldest four sources used when discussing this list date from 2000BCE, 1817 BCE, 1712 BCE, 1250 BCE.


That is still few, and most of them are in dispute. Hamurabi is in dispute of his datings, as are a host of Greek figures.

quote:

Nice attempt to shift the goal posts. My comment was about evidence for proof of existence, not who was revered the most. Lots of kids love Santa, the Easter bunny, the tooth fairy, dorathy the dinosaur etc. This does not prove that they exist.


Santa has no proof of existence. Moses gave us hard copy laws which turn the world today. What did Santa give us? We should not look for hard proof of Moses - the text denies this possibility.

quote:
How many contemporary eyewitness accounts do you have for any of the actions of Moses?

3 Million Israelites and a mixed multitude of other peoples. This is described in the first scientific cencus, with sub-total of tribes, gender and age groups. Now if one wants to present a lie - they surely would not say millions were witness - would you?

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-14-2011 11:15 AM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-15-2011 12:26 AM IamJoseph has responded

    
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 274 of 306 (640986)
11-15-2011 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by Butterflytyrant
11-15-2011 12:26 AM


BITE THE BULLET!
I'm not religious, never mind fundamentalist! It seems I was correct not to accept your scholars' view of David being fable and myth: I saw loads of evidence, where your scholars saw none. Nothing whatsoever to do with religion or belief, only factual, logical pursuit of truth applies: You have also lost the debate of the Hebrew bible being the first alphabetical book; that the universe being finite was introduced in Genesis, and that Evolution is a bad rip off from the creation chapter in Genesis.

YOU SHALL NOT FOLLOW A CORRUPTED MULTITUDE.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-15-2011 12:26 AM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by AdminPD, posted 11-15-2011 4:39 AM IamJoseph has not yet responded

    
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 277 of 306 (641040)
11-15-2011 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by ICANT
11-15-2011 11:08 AM


Re: LET THE TRUTH SET YOU FREE - OR EXPOSE A LIE.
You are covering the same ground obsessively, without factoring any responsa. I gave you 100% proof the Hebrew bible laws forbids adding and subtracting from those laws, with verse numbers, yet you say you don't know what I'm talking about! Acknowledge your error, then move on. I also explained this is the reason Christianity and Judaism became two seperate belief systems - IMHO the Jews were correct: it is proven when Christianity rejected Islam - for similar reasons. Bite the bullet if your pursuit is for the truth as opposed any belief.

Further, I also stated the clean and unclean animals are limited to Noah's household [the text], the reason no wild animals are listed: because they cannot be domestic animals! In all your posts you disregarded the verse which stipulates that only Noah and his family and only his household possessions, are applicable!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by ICANT, posted 11-15-2011 11:08 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by ICANT, posted 11-15-2011 10:39 PM IamJoseph has responded

    
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 279 of 306 (641052)
11-16-2011 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by ICANT
11-15-2011 10:39 PM


Re: LET THE TRUTH SET YOU FREE - OR EXPOSE A LIE.
quote:
You quoted a verse of scripture that does not exist in the Bible.

Which one is that?

quote:

When presented a direct quote of the verse you ignore it and repeat you have presented 100% evidence that the verse says what you say.

This referred to the law not to add or subtract. I stand by that.

quote:

Further, I also stated the clean and unclean animals are limited to Noah's household [the text],

But the law of Moses did not exist for 857 years after the flood.


Irrelevent. You still did not factor in a pivotal verse in the Noah story, relating only to Noah's household! Everything you say MUST align with it.

quote:

The Law was given to the descendants of Isaac the son of Abraham and Sarah.

So why are we actually discussing clean and unclean animals?


True the laws were given later, but this does not effect the standing of the law; only the people were yet not onuserable for it. Clean and unclean are words in the Noah story, relating to Noah's household; they are directed at consumerable and non-consumerable animals in Noah's household. You are using this as referring to all the animals of the earth, in contradiction of Noah's household animals and the size of the arc given to Noah.

quote:

Why would Moses mention clean and not clean animals in Genesis chapter 7 & 8 when he knew there was no Law concerning the animals that were to be on the ark?

It is ludicrous to think Moses wrote the texts that defines clean and not clean when it did not exist.

The only way those things were mentioned was by some misguided copyist that knew they had to be clean or unclean animals being talked about.

I just wonder how much more was added to the text in chapter 7, to make it a Israelite story instead of a Gentile story which it was as the nation of Israel did not exist at the time of Noah.

Yea I know you don't believe something like that could happen.

But they were just as zealous as you are and just as misguided.


Totally short sighted. The law was the law, even in Noah's time. But it was not yet given. Jacob married two sisters, which is forbidden by the law. It means the law was the law, but Jacob was not guilty of it at that time. Moses, writing retrospectively, knew of this law, using its terminology to describe clean and unclean animals - in Noah's household only. It means also, if Christians eat pig, it is against a law, but that Christians are not onuserable for it - they were not given this law directly; this law is for the protection of the pig, as opposed protection of humans, as with the law not to mix meat and milk being for the protection of the bird - it can identify its mother's milk but humans cannot perform this feat.

quote:

I see you still can't understand English or answer questions.

You don't have a clue as to what the text says.

That is the reason you tell me that וכלביתד means domestic animals.


Yes, I attach it to Noah's household, the arc size - and good grammar [the text]

quote:

You also define "EVERY" as some.


Every is aligned with Noah's household, not all the earth, not all the heavens and the universe. [the text]

quote:

You also define "ALL" as some.

All in Noah's household.

quote:

You also define "WHOLE HEAVENS" as part of the heavens.

The whole heavens "of Noah's region". As in ALL THE EARTH STOOD STILL.

quote:

You also define "ALL THE HIGH HILLS" as some of the high hills was covered with water.

My reading is consistant, I do not ignor pivotal verses, instead I align it with everything else in the text. You do the reverse, never even mentioning it anywhere.

quote:

I am beginning to get the picture that if the text does not say what you want it to say that you just change it to suit your worldview.

Now if you disagree give me your definitions of:

"EVERY"
"ALL"
"WHOLE HEAVENS"
"ALL THE HIGH HILLS"

If you don't give me your definitions I am going to assume that I got them right.


I have responded to those items numerously with no possibility of confusion.

quote:

Since you did not take the time to address the following am I to assume that you agree with the following list?

7 oxen allowed
7 cows allowed.
7 bison allowed.
7 wild deer allowed. But you say no wild animals. Not allowed.
7 sheep allowed.
7 goats allowed.
7 Gazelle allowed.
7 Giraffe allowed.
7 chickens allowed.
7 doves allowed.
If the following was not wild they would be allowed.
7 ducks allowed.
7 geese allowed.
7 turkeys allowed.
2 Rahvins not allowed according to you as they would have been wild.
2 horses allowed.
2 asses allowed.
2 tame cats allowed.
2 tame dogs allowed.

If you disagree with the above list please add any animals you think would have been in Noah's household.


There is no reason to disagree Noah would have possessed all or those kinds of animals. Your list includes both clean and unclean animals. Notably, they contain no wild animals like snakes and bears, aligning only with my reading of the text.

quote:

I would really like to know how big your ark would have to be to be able to house Noah, his sons, and all their wives plus the critters.

The arc size is well catered to Noah's household possessions only, and agrees only with my reading of the text.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by ICANT, posted 11-15-2011 10:39 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by ICANT, posted 11-16-2011 12:42 PM IamJoseph has responded

    
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 280 of 306 (641053)
11-16-2011 12:54 AM


There is a Creation museum which shows dinosaurs living side by side with humans. This understanding is unrelated to the text in Genesis and a totally wrong, embarrassing understanding of the Hebrew bible.

As well, Christians read Genesis as the earth's age being 6000 years old, when this only applies to a life form different from and possessing a unique trait: namely a speech endowed attribute; this is vindicated today - we have no NAME older than 6000; not even any history per se. In fact, Genesis is the first document which said the earth is billions of years old, 1000's of years before science affirmed it. One only has to include the pre-life actions listed in Genesis, namely the seperation actions of light and darkness, day and night, water and land; these account for billions and millions of years, and is listed well before any life emerged. The Christian view is held in sincerity, but are in error. The text is not in error, but it requires intelligent deliberation.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


    
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 282 of 306 (641216)
11-18-2011 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by ICANT
11-16-2011 12:42 PM


Re: LET THE TRUTH SET YOU FREE - OR EXPOSE A LIE.
quote:

IamJoseph writes:
Which one is that?

The one you quoted giving the book, chapter, and verse as saying:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not to add to the commandments of the Torah, whether in the Written Law or in its interpretation received by tradition (Deut. 13:1)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The actual text says:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now either you can't read and understand English if you can't tell the difference in what the text says from what you assert it says or you are being deliberately dishonest with your assertions.


Are you seriously confused of such a pivotal law and discussing this bible? FYI, I claimed [or should have] Duet 13/1:

quote:
Deuteronomy Chapter 13
1 All this word which I command you, that shall ye observe to do; thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Now you see why Christianity and Judaism could not/did not blend in their core doctrines, and that the Jews were right of it. Only that which cannot be added to or subtracted from is the real mcoy. Thus did Christianity foster Islam to emulate by the same premise. Result: Kaos - for all cannot right, obviously, and this does not change by the 'belief' factor.

And these are the souls which were called into the arc; note it says 'thou shall take' - which can only apply to Noah taking his animals; and 'all thy house' - namely all Noah's possessions of clean & unclean animals:

quote:
Genesis Chapter 7
1 And the LORD said unto Noah: 'Come thou and all thy house into the ark; 2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee seven and seven, each with his mate; and of the beasts that are not clean two [and two], each with his mate; 3 of the fowl also of the air, seven and seven, male and female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

These are the people and animals which emerged from the arc when the flood ceased. Note it says 'Bring forth with thee' [Noah's animals with Noah]; 'every living thing that is with thee' [animals which are with thee - Noah's animals]; 'of all flesh' - here you see clearly what 'all flesh' means: 'all flesh that is with thee [in the arc with Noah]; not all the flesh of the earth.

Note also it says: '18 And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him; [refers to the people who went in]; 19 'every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, whatsoever moveth upon the earth' - namely all the creeping things, whatsoever moved - not all the life that moved on the earth!

quote:
16 'Go forth from the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee. 17 Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee of all flesh, both fowl, and cattle, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may swarm in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.' 18 And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him; 19 every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, whatsoever moveth upon the earth, after their families; went forth out of the ark. 20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt-offerings on the altar.

QED.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by ICANT, posted 11-16-2011 12:42 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Panda, posted 11-18-2011 6:06 AM IamJoseph has responded
 Message 287 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-18-2011 8:37 AM IamJoseph has responded

    
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 284 of 306 (641242)
11-18-2011 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by Panda
11-18-2011 6:06 AM


Re: LET THE TRUTH SET YOU FREE - OR EXPOSE A LIE.
quote:

Deuteronomy Chapter 13
1 All this word which I command you, that shall ye observe to do; thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

That is not Deuteronomy 13:1.
Try again.


Trying again:

quote:
Deuteronomy Chapter 13
1 All this word which I command you, that shall ye observe to do; thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it


This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Panda, posted 11-18-2011 6:06 AM Panda has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Admin, posted 11-18-2011 7:22 AM IamJoseph has responded

    
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 286 of 306 (641246)
11-18-2011 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by Admin
11-18-2011 7:22 AM


Re: LET THE TRUTH SET YOU FREE - OR EXPOSE A LIE.
Ok, however I never realized this variance existed. Yet the issue concerned the inclusion of this law more so than where it belongs.

Thanks.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Admin, posted 11-18-2011 7:22 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

    
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