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Author Topic:   Why Do People Steal?
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 76 of 270 (641377)
11-18-2011 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Artemis Entreri
11-18-2011 6:33 PM


Re: the troll is in your mirror
You are the one on here flaming, name calling and causing a disturbance, making off topic posts that are personal attacks against me. the 3 mentioned above are not making this personal, you are. it is something you do all the time, in MY BOOK you are the troll in this thread.

No, I'm calling you out in hopes that people will stop taking you seriously and stop replying to you as if you actually do what your posts say you do. It's obvious you are an attention seeking child (THAT's name calling) and you think it's cute to glorify criminality.

please dont tell me that after 666+ posts anyone here takes me serious at all.

The reason is because I rarely agree with anyone on any site, I am the heel, the devils advocate (seen as a troll by morons, but there is a difference if you have a brain).

(FYI: It ceases to be "playing devils advocate" when you are in opposition to EVERYONE on every post you make.)


"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-18-2011 6:33 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-18-2011 7:38 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16041
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 77 of 270 (641378)
11-18-2011 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Artemis Entreri
11-18-2011 6:56 PM


I'm guessing you are trying to saying I am guilty of the same thing, but I am not.

"He started it" and "I didn't do it" are actually two different propositions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-18-2011 6:56 PM Artemis Entreri has acknowledged this reply

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2154 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 78 of 270 (641379)
11-18-2011 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Modulous
11-18-2011 6:53 PM


YAY back on topic.
Modulous writes:

We're in a thread discussing whether an act of petty fraud constitutes stealing.
That is to say: we're already into semantics

Whew. I am just glad to be back on to the topic, rather than defending myself from the name callers and their fans.

Shit. I guess we are dangit.

Anyway, I was trying to draw the distinction between a uniquely British term and an English word used beyond the shores of Britain. As far as I am aware, 'fraudster' is not just a British term. I may be wrong, though.
Hustler is an American term, but it has made its way over to our culture too now. We have a show here called 'The Real Hustle' (which is a sort of spin off from a fictional series called 'The Hustle'), where apparently real people are fake hustled as a means of showing many of the common cons that are out there.

Right on. I wanted to make sure I wasnt reading into anything. There was another post I think it was cavediver, where he said he was out in a field looking for a wallet with a torch. And all I could think of is DANG get a flashlight, but to him torch = flashlight. To me torch is stick that is on fire. Sometimes what we say to each other gets lost in translation.

The question is, is fraud theft? I would say that it does constitute stealing, since it is taking something you would not normally be entitled to take given your actual financial investment made.

I think it is dishonest. And I know it is illegal, but I do not think it constitutes theft. I think the crime is Fraud, if the crime were theft then I would not have an argument.


And right back at ya, on the 'fun' front.

I am glad that not everyone is so serious and thinks I am trolling. The thing is, I do not care if I am right or wrong. If you guys can prove to me that I am wrong then great. I learned something today. I am not trying to win an argument. Personally I find that debating something from the POV of the other side makes me better at debating (even if I loose everytime), because I have to think about something from a different angle than I do personally. Too some this is the definition of a Troll; I have seen trolls on other sites, they have no skills at all, its just personal attacks, and non-thought out crazy talk to elicit a response. I want a response, but I want to discuss it, not make you mad about it.

Since I already said, I professionally engage with fraudsters on a daily basis, I can assure you I know many tricks of my own. I already know how to get away with tens of thousands of pounds with only a few hours of time invested

Yeah but I am sure the penalty, and chance of discovery is too rough. That or maybe its something cultural, maybe us greedy time is money Americans would most likely jump all over that, and Englishmen are not that way. I dunno.


I was once offered a sizeable series of bribes to facilitate almost legal activity (I would have to break a law with a relatively minor criminal penalty, and I knew that I wouldn't be prosecuted because of reputation issues). I'll leave it to your imagination as to whether I accepted the bribes, but to alleviate any sense that I am trying to get on some high moral horse, I was offered the bribes by a co-conspirator during another crime I was engaged in at the time.

You shouldve IMO. I realize you are not on a moral High horse, though I appreciate your civility. What is your reasoning though for not taking advantage of the situation though?

As I mentioned earlier, I think most people would commit fraud if they thought they could get away with it. Misrepresent some material fact to get cheaper insurance, or to to claim more welfare benefit than they are entitled to. Some people simply don't realize how easy fraud is.

Where I am from most people do. It is foreign to me that many people do not understand how easy fraud is. It is also hard to prosecute, because many times intent must be shown. Later on tonight, Dr Adequate is going to come over and steal all my stuff, then we are going to split the insurance money, if we both keep our mouths shut they will never find out. He Says he is keeping it, and just stealing it, but he HAS to say though or else we will get caught.

As one person in the financial sector once said. "If you're going to steal, steal big.". Another strategy is to do as you do, steal really small. Trying to steal (sorry, defraud ) $100k is the kind of thing that'll get you in serious trouble.

Stealing big is a bad idea IMO. Great risk and great reward, but I am far to conservative for that.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Modulous, posted 11-18-2011 6:53 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by DrJones*, posted 11-18-2011 8:14 PM Artemis Entreri has not yet responded
 Message 89 by Modulous, posted 11-18-2011 9:16 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2154 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 79 of 270 (641380)
11-18-2011 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Dr Adequate
11-18-2011 6:58 PM


Re: fraud
Stop me if I'm going too fast for you.

yeah I thought i said that in #74. I am not following you at all right now.

SLOW DOWN


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2011 6:58 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2011 7:38 PM Artemis Entreri has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16041
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 80 of 270 (641381)
11-18-2011 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Artemis Entreri
11-18-2011 7:29 PM


Re: fraud
yeah I thought i said that in #74. I am not following you at all right now.

SLOW DOWN

Well you seem to be confusing two different ideas: the idea that something is wrong, and the idea that something's not in your best interest.

If you really can't see why rape is wrong independent of whether or not you'll be punished for it, then I don't think I can explain it to you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-18-2011 7:29 PM Artemis Entreri has not yet responded

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2154 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 81 of 270 (641382)
11-18-2011 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by hooah212002
11-18-2011 6:59 PM


ADMIN
how do you report someone for:

name calling

thread jacking

and repeatedly making off topic posts, while admitting to trying to derail a thread.

No, I'm calling you out in hopes that people will stop taking you seriously and stop replying to you as if you actually do what your posts say you do. It's obvious you are an attention seeking child (THAT's name calling) and you think it's cute to glorify criminality.

why don't you just ignore me like I try to ignore you? [rhetorical]

because you are an asshat, and disruptive, if i was that bothersome you would just ignore me, instead of this personal crusade you have against me. I do my best to ignore both of the bad posters from Wisconsin.

(FYI: It ceases to be "playing devils advocate" when you are in opposition to EVERYONE on every post you make.)

FYI: I am agreeing with Modulous in this very thread. Are you blind, or is reading difficult for you?

also there are people on here I almost never disagree with, so as usual you are wrong again.

I may have unintentionally trolled you. my only logical explanation for the rage you have for me personally, but that was not my intent.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by hooah212002, posted 11-18-2011 6:59 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

  
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1768
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(1)
Message 82 of 270 (641385)
11-18-2011 8:06 PM


Who doesn't steal?
How many readers would engage in a cash transaction in order to avoid paying the tax? I know I would and I consider myself to be scrupulously honest. Is that theft?

I know a few people who wouldn't but they are kinda strange.


Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 11-18-2011 8:16 PM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply
 Message 85 by Shield, posted 11-18-2011 8:23 PM ProtoTypical has responded
 Message 91 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2011 9:28 PM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1725
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 83 of 270 (641386)
11-18-2011 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Artemis Entreri
11-18-2011 7:26 PM


Re: YAY back on topic.
I think it is dishonest. And I know it is illegal, but I do not think it constitutes theft. I think the crime is Fraud, if the crime were theft then I would not have an argument.

If by fraudulent means you pay $1 for something that is priced at $10 you are stealing $9 from the store.

God separated the races and attempting to mix them is like attempting to mix water with diesel fuel.- Buzsaw Message 177

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-18-2011 7:26 PM Artemis Entreri has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 84 of 270 (641387)
11-18-2011 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by ProtoTypical
11-18-2011 8:06 PM


Re: Who doesn't steal?
I would not do that knowingly.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by ProtoTypical, posted 11-18-2011 8:06 PM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply

  
Shield
Member (Idle past 787 days)
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-29-2008


Message 85 of 270 (641389)
11-18-2011 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by ProtoTypical
11-18-2011 8:06 PM


Re: Who doesn't steal?
I wouldnt.

"Render unto Caesar"

I did, however, have a shoplifting binge when i was 13 or 14. I can write about that later.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by ProtoTypical, posted 11-18-2011 8:06 PM ProtoTypical has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by ProtoTypical, posted 11-18-2011 8:34 PM Shield has responded

    
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1768
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 86 of 270 (641390)
11-18-2011 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Shield
11-18-2011 8:23 PM


Re: Who doesn't steal?
"Render unto Caesar"

Remembering, of course, that I do all kinds of rendering unto Caesar. Perhaps as much as 50% of what I earn is rendered off by the time I am done spending it.

If I buy $100 worth of fire wood from my neighbour, should I pay an additional $13 to the state?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Shield, posted 11-18-2011 8:23 PM Shield has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by jar, posted 11-18-2011 9:03 PM ProtoTypical has responded
 Message 88 by Shield, posted 11-18-2011 9:08 PM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 87 of 270 (641393)
11-18-2011 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by ProtoTypical
11-18-2011 8:34 PM


Re: Who doesn't steal?
Depends on where you live. In the US, that would not be a taxable sale unless your neighbor sold wood as a profession.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by ProtoTypical, posted 11-18-2011 8:34 PM ProtoTypical has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by ProtoTypical, posted 11-18-2011 9:25 PM jar has responded

  
Shield
Member (Idle past 787 days)
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-29-2008


Message 88 of 270 (641394)
11-18-2011 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by ProtoTypical
11-18-2011 8:34 PM


Re: Who doesn't steal?
If thats the law, so be it.

I dont follow every and any law my self, i do illegal drugs as an example. But when you pay taxes, you pay to the society in which you are part of. You help making sure everyone is OK.

It made me sad when the top tax bracket her in denmark fell from 63 to 60%. I dont make the monies to be in that bracket now (I currently pay 39%), but i will be some day, and i hope to pay MORE than 63%. I like giving to society.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by ProtoTypical, posted 11-18-2011 8:34 PM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply

    
Modulous
Member (Idle past 29 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 89 of 270 (641395)
11-18-2011 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Artemis Entreri
11-18-2011 7:26 PM


fraud as theft
I think it is dishonest. And I know it is illegal, but I do not think it constitutes theft.

I would argue that fraud is a type of theft.

Theft is acquiring something that you are not entitled to, from someone who is - regardless of the method of the acquisition.

Fraud is obtaining something that you are not entitled to, by deception. That is to say, fraud is theft by deception.

Yeah but I am sure the penalty, and chance of discovery is too rough. That or maybe its something cultural, maybe us greedy time is money Americans would most likely jump all over that, and Englishmen are not that way. I dunno.

The chance of discovery is medium (it was low when the offer was made, but they've caught wise now), but being able to prove me guilty beyond reasonable doubt is another issue entirely.

There are plenty of English frauds, and some of them defraud for thousands of pounds. It just so happens I am not one of them. This isn't because of my nationality, but because I have a moral system which views theft by deception as morally bad.

You could do the same fraud yourself, it doesn't require a great deal of expertise or insider knowledge to pull it off.

You shouldve IMO. I realize you are not on a moral High horse, though I appreciate your civility. What is your reasoning though for not taking advantage of the situation though?

Call it one of the side effects of having morals. I don't like victimising people for personal profit, and it was not a victimless crime.

Where I am from most people do.

And most people are unpleasant, if they get to be so anonymously. Fraud is a great way to be unpleasant to someone else without worrying about the victims finding out who they are.

Stealing big is a bad idea IMO. Great risk and great reward, but I am far to conservative for that.

You're not thinking big enough. I'm talking billions big.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-18-2011 7:26 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-28-2011 3:03 PM Modulous has responded

  
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1768
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 90 of 270 (641396)
11-18-2011 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by jar
11-18-2011 9:03 PM


Re: Who doesn't steal?
Assume that it is illegal. Is it theft?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by jar, posted 11-18-2011 9:03 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 11-18-2011 9:41 PM ProtoTypical has responded

  
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