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Author Topic:   Why Do People Steal?
Phat
Member
Posts: 11569
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 106 of 270 (641433)
11-19-2011 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by jar
11-19-2011 10:25 AM


Re: Make up your own definition.
jar writes:

It does not matter what you consider right or wrong, if it is illegal then it is a crime.

Smoking pot is illegal. Who is it a crime against?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by jar, posted 11-19-2011 10:25 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by jar, posted 11-19-2011 11:17 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 108 by Panda, posted 11-19-2011 11:44 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 107 of 270 (641434)
11-19-2011 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
11-19-2011 11:15 AM


Re: Make up your own definition.
The state and federal government it seems.

And it is still a crime.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 11-19-2011 11:15 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 1687 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 108 of 270 (641436)
11-19-2011 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
11-19-2011 11:15 AM


Re: Make up your own definition.
Phat writes:

Who is it a crime against?

To discuss who it is a crime against is to acknowledge it is a crime.
Crimes with victims and 'victimless' crimes are, by definition, crimes.

The definition of 'a crime' requiring a victim is only used by criminals who can't accept that what they are doing is a crime.
If our actions are a breach of criminal law then we have committed a crime and are therefore criminals.


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 11-19-2011 11:15 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Omnivorous, posted 11-19-2011 1:50 PM Panda has responded

  
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2397 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 109 of 270 (641449)
11-19-2011 1:08 PM


what is stealing?
There can be many interpretation of what stealing is.

*steps onto soap box*

We all steal.

This can go from taking something directly from another individuals person (picking a pocket or mugging), stealing from a store or business (shop lifting, returning something you have used for a refund), stealing by finding (keeping something you find knowing it is not yours), paying cash in order to avoiding (stealing from your government), making fraudulent insurance claims etc etc etc

There is also theft of common goods. The 'tragedy of the commons'.

All of the commonly owned 'goods' on this earth belong to every person. All people now and all people in the future.

Every time you take home a shell from the beach, you take something that belongs to everyone. Every time you take more than the bag limit when you hunt or fish, you are taking more than your share from the common pool. Every time you take a tree for christmas from a public forest, you are taking from everyone.

The air we breath and the clean water on this earth is also everybodies. Whenever you pollute the air or water, you are stealing from everyone. When you pour oil down a drain that runs to a river or throw plastic garbage into your incinerator instead of disposing of it properly, you are stealing from everyone.

It could be said that anyone who does not do their best to be environmentaly friendly is stealing from future generations.

We all steal from someone.

Here endeth the greenies rant.

*steps down from soapbox*


I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong

Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot

"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson


    
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 942 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 110 of 270 (641454)
11-19-2011 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Panda
11-19-2011 11:44 AM


Re: Make up your own definition.
Panda writes:

If our actions are a breach of criminal law then we have committed a crime and are therefore criminals.

Dictionary wise...

Panda writes:

The definition of 'a crime' requiring a victim is only used by criminals who can't accept that what they are doing is a crime.

One might reject a definition for reasons other than an inability to accept it.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Panda, posted 11-19-2011 11:44 AM Panda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Panda, posted 11-19-2011 5:03 PM Omnivorous has responded

    
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 111 of 270 (641466)
11-19-2011 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Dr Adequate
11-18-2011 11:12 PM


Re: Cherry Picking Biblical Scripture
DA writes:

The trouble is that they also believe that God forgives them all their sins as a reward for believing that God forgives them all their sins as a reward for believing that God forgives them all their sins as a reward for ... wait, this sentence is becoming infinitely recursive.

Which at least some of them seem to regard as a moral carte blanche.

DA, it appears that you need to be apprised of the term, fundamentalist. Then you need to know and understand the corroborated fundamentals of the NT regarding forgiveness.

On the one hand it says, "If we confess our sin, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins." I John 1:9

You then corroborate this with James 2:18-21:

quote:
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Thus you don't cherry pick from Biblical truth so as to obfuscate it to someone's private interpretation, as is so frequently applicable to members in their futile attempt to debunk the reliability of the Biblical record.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edited by Buzsaw, : word correction


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2011 11:12 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-20-2011 3:11 AM Buzsaw has responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 1687 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 112 of 270 (641481)
11-19-2011 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Omnivorous
11-19-2011 1:50 PM


Re: Make up your own definition.
Omni writes:

Dictionary wise...

Well, one can always make up the meaning of words...

Omni writes:

One might reject a definition for reasons other than an inability to accept it.

True.

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Omnivorous, posted 11-19-2011 1:50 PM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Omnivorous, posted 11-19-2011 6:35 PM Panda has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11569
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 113 of 270 (641496)
11-19-2011 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Dr Adequate
11-18-2011 9:28 PM


Re: Who doesn't steal?
dogmafood writes:

How many readers would engage in a cash transaction in order to avoid paying the tax? I know I would and I consider myself to be scrupulously honest.

adequate writes:

I have declined to do so; I can't put my hand on my heart and say that I always would (I might behave differently if I was really strapped for cash).

If I could really trust that God would even everything out someday, I would never be tempted to take justice into my own hands. Wealthy folks get tax breaks and deplete MY pensions and MY investments to steal from us. When it becomes survival of the fittest...wait, thats probably what many safeway shoplifters use to reason with!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2011 9:28 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 942 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 114 of 270 (641501)
11-19-2011 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Panda
11-19-2011 5:03 PM


Re: Make up your own definition.
Omni writes:

Dictionary wise...

Panda writes:

Well, one can always make up the meaning of words...

Words existed before dictionaries, and dictionaries often provoke debate and dissent.

Common usage often differs from dictionary definitions, and it is the common usage that almost always ultimately prevails.

Desktop dictionaries offer quite abbreviated definitions, useful mostly for a glancing reference. The full OED treatment of a word often yields considerable surprises.

(I'd check my OED for "crime" and "criminal" but I never bought the e-version, and that magnifying glass is a torment now... )

AbE: I have no objection to characterizing my transgressions of law as crimes, or myself as a criminal.

Edited by Omnivorous, : embracing the term


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Panda, posted 11-19-2011 5:03 PM Panda has acknowledged this reply

    
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1769
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 115 of 270 (641518)
11-19-2011 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by jar
11-19-2011 10:25 AM


Re: Make up your own definition.
jar writes:

It does not matter what you consider right or wrong, if it is illegal then it is a crime.

Yes of course comrade citizen.

A crime requires a victim. Not a theoretical victim but a flesh and blood victim who can demonstrate that they have been harmed in some way. In most cases, illegal activity is criminal but not always. Rosa Parks broke the law but committed no crime. The protesters in Syria are apparently in opposition to the law. Are they criminals? What crime did Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn commit and against who? Or the gay Iranians that hang from the gallows. Or the pot smokers. Crimes against the state are just like crimes against god, they dont exist. You need a person suffering on the other end. So no, I dont agree that all illegal activity is criminal. We all have a sense of right and wrong and it precedes the law. The law is dependant on it and you have an obligation as a sentient being to follow your conscience before the law.

Stealing is criminal and it is a crime because there is a victim not because it is against the law. We allow it to be against the law because it is a crime. When you work it your way we end up with laws that turn citizens into criminals.

This is getting away from why people steal.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by jar, posted 11-19-2011 10:25 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by jar, posted 11-20-2011 12:09 AM ProtoTypical has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 116 of 270 (641519)
11-20-2011 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by ProtoTypical
11-19-2011 11:55 PM


Re: Make up your own definition.
Well, no, it does not require a victim. If it is illegal by definition it is a crime.

It really is that simple.

But the reasons people steal are complex; they may believe it is a victimless crime, covered by insurance, that they deserve what is stolen, they might even have a valid reason to steal; to save someones life, to save their life.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by ProtoTypical, posted 11-19-2011 11:55 PM ProtoTypical has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by ProtoTypical, posted 11-20-2011 10:42 AM jar has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16065
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 117 of 270 (641528)
11-20-2011 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Buzsaw
11-19-2011 3:31 PM


Re: Cherry Picking Biblical Scripture
DA, it appears that you need to be apprised of the term, fundamentalist. Then you need to know and understand the corroborated fundamentals of the NT regarding forgiveness.

Ah, the No True Christian gambit.

Thus you don't cherry pick from Biblical truth so as to obfuscate it to someone's private interpretation ...

You're right, I don't --- I leave that up to Christian fundamentalists, who are so good at it after so many centuries of practice. All I do is observe that they exist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Buzsaw, posted 11-19-2011 3:31 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Buzsaw, posted 11-20-2011 7:14 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1769
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 118 of 270 (641571)
11-20-2011 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by jar
11-20-2011 12:09 AM


Re: Make up your own definition.
If it is illegal by definition it is a crime.

Is the corollary then true that if it is not illegal then it is not a crime?

In the land of simple definitions, does your right to property trump my right to life? If I steal a loaf of bread to avoid starvation is that really a crime? It is certainly illegal and it is certainly theft but is it a crime? If I legally manage to obtain all the bread and then allow you to starve is that not a crime even though perfectly legal?

My brother and I were discussing the looming apocalypse. The question was, would you shoot someone who came to pilfer your potatoes? Are we obliged to defend our potatoes or should we starve together?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by jar, posted 11-20-2011 12:09 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by jar, posted 11-20-2011 11:15 AM ProtoTypical has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 119 of 270 (641572)
11-20-2011 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by ProtoTypical
11-20-2011 10:42 AM


Re: Make up your own definition.
If you steal a loaf of bread to avoid starvation, then today it is a crime.

If I legally obtain all the bread and then allow you to starve, it is not a crime today.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by ProtoTypical, posted 11-20-2011 10:42 AM ProtoTypical has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Phat, posted 11-20-2011 4:06 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11569
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 120 of 270 (641600)
11-20-2011 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by jar
11-20-2011 11:15 AM


Re: Make up your own definition.
Laws are made by popular consensus and can be amended by popular consensus, if situations warrant. I'll never let a trite legality stand in the way of common sense. If I run a red light on a deserted street corner at 3 am, I don't expect any cop to even bother pursuing me if they see, since they too have common sense.

Technically they could ticket me. That I will admit.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by jar, posted 11-20-2011 11:15 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by jar, posted 11-20-2011 4:08 PM Phat has responded

  
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