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Author Topic:   Why Do People Steal?
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 121 of 270 (641601)
11-20-2011 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Phat
11-20-2011 4:06 PM


Re: Make up your own definition.
If you run a red light on a deserted street corner at 3 am you are committing a crime.

If you were seen you should be ticketed.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Phat, posted 11-20-2011 4:06 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Phat, posted 11-20-2011 5:29 PM jar has responded
 Message 125 by NoNukes, posted 11-20-2011 6:09 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11322
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 122 of 270 (641607)
11-20-2011 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by jar
11-20-2011 4:08 PM


Re: Make up your own definition.
jar writes:

If you run a red light on a deserted street corner at 3 am you are committing a crime.

If you were seen you should be ticketed.

This, from the man who tells us that its our duty to question God? I question humans, also. It would be my day in court.(FYI..consensus is that if the light stays red over a minute and no cars are in sight, treat it like a 4 way stop...around these parts.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by jar, posted 11-20-2011 4:08 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by jar, posted 11-20-2011 5:38 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 123 of 270 (641609)
11-20-2011 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Phat
11-20-2011 5:29 PM


Re: Make up your own definition.
Red light, no cop in sight.

Yup, that is a common justification.

It is still a crime.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Phat, posted 11-20-2011 5:29 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Phat, posted 11-20-2011 5:45 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11322
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 124 of 270 (641611)
11-20-2011 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by jar
11-20-2011 5:38 PM


Why Do People Question Laws?
It is a crime, that much I'll agree with.

It is also a prime example of a law that should be challenged and amended.

(If in fact people were ticketed for running lights after waiting a reasonable amount of time and seeing no change)

Edited by Phat, : title


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by jar, posted 11-20-2011 5:38 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 125 of 270 (641612)
11-20-2011 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by jar
11-20-2011 4:08 PM


Re: Make up your own definition.
Traffic offenses make poor examples because they are usually infractions. In at least some jurisdictions (for example California), infractions are not considered crimes.

In any event, I don't understand the distinction between criminal and non-criminal behavior being made in this thread. Some crimes carry no implications of moral turpitude, while other wrongs which break no laws whatsoever are things almost anyone would condemn.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by jar, posted 11-20-2011 4:08 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by jar, posted 11-20-2011 6:26 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 129 by ProtoTypical, posted 11-20-2011 8:18 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 137 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-28-2011 3:05 PM NoNukes has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 126 of 270 (641615)
11-20-2011 6:25 PM


Why people steal
As I said back in Message 116 the reasons people steal are complex; they may believe it is a victimless crime, covered by insurance, that they deserve what is stolen, that it will never be noticed, that they have been deprived; they might even have a valid reason to steal; to save someones life, to save their own life.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 127 of 270 (641616)
11-20-2011 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by NoNukes
11-20-2011 6:09 PM


Re: Make up your own definition.
I have no idea why they were brought up except that people seem to be trying to justify their behavior.

It's certainly unrelated to the topic.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by NoNukes, posted 11-20-2011 6:09 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 270 (641620)
11-20-2011 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Dr Adequate
11-20-2011 3:11 AM


Re: Cherry Picking Biblical Scripture
DA writes:

DA, it appears that you need to be apprised of the term, fundamentalist. Then you need to know and understand the corroborated fundamentals of the NT regarding forgiveness.

Ah, the No True Christian gambit.

Thus you don't cherry pick from Biblical truth so as to obfuscate it to someone's private interpretation ...

You're right, I don't --- I leave that up to Christian fundamentalists, who are so good at it after so many centuries of practice. All I do is observe that they exist.

It appears that you either ignored the James fundamental regarding sins & forgiveness or didn't read it. It is what the true fundamentalist practices and believes.

Perhaps that our nation has more Biblical fundamentalists per capita than any others is why this nation has been the place where so many have sought for freedom, refuge and the good life. The old secularist Soviet Union, Red China and most third world nations come to mind.

Perhaps you should try Muslim fundamentals or the fundamentals of Communism. Paganistic ones? How about the fundi record of Catholicism as per Spain, Italy and Mexico et al? No? Must be most US Christian fundies have traditionally believed the James doctrine.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-20-2011 3:11 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-20-2011 11:16 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1768
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 129 of 270 (641628)
11-20-2011 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by NoNukes
11-20-2011 6:09 PM


Re: Make up your own definition.
In any event, I don't understand the distinction between criminal and non-criminal behavior being made in this thread.

We are examining the justifications for theft. An examination of what constitutes a theft seems to be in order. If some cases of theft are not actually crimes is that not pertinent?

Jar keeps insisting, without support beyond an appeal to popularity, that anything illegal is, by definition, criminal. I disagree and assert that determining what constitutes a crime comes before any law defines it. The crime exists with or without the law that forbids it. When you understand this you understand that going through a red light at a deserted intersection is not a crime.

If we were to determine that stealing a loaf of bread when motivated by hunger is in fact not a crime does this not impact the question of why people the steal?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by NoNukes, posted 11-20-2011 6:09 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Phat, posted 11-20-2011 8:41 PM ProtoTypical has responded
 Message 131 by NoNukes, posted 11-20-2011 10:38 PM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11322
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 130 of 270 (641630)
11-20-2011 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by ProtoTypical
11-20-2011 8:18 PM


A Crime Is A Crime Is A
If we were to determine that stealing a loaf of bread when motivated by hunger is in fact not a crime does this not impact the question of why people the steal?

I won't argue the fact that stealing is technically always a crime. Initially, what made me maddest at shoplifters is that these people were gaini9ng something that I could not have..(or would not have, due to personal morality) and I can't stand the idea of anyone profiting at my expense. What I mean is...our company would usually turn a blind eye to shoplifting, racking it up as a necessary expense of doing business...and would then go after labor as a bottom line expense! In other words, these people were indirectly affecting my job!

But thats another topic.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by ProtoTypical, posted 11-20-2011 8:18 PM ProtoTypical has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by ProtoTypical, posted 11-21-2011 7:01 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 270 (641637)
11-20-2011 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by ProtoTypical
11-20-2011 8:18 PM


Re: Make up your own definition.
Jar keeps insisting, without support beyond an appeal to popularity, that anything illegal is, by definition, criminal.

What if it were true that anything illegal is by definition criminal. Wouldn't that simply change the target for assigning morality. We could agree that actions are criminal without agreeing that all crimes are morally wrong.

FWIW, it's easy to list acts that are illegal but are not crimes.

For example, many civil offenses have no criminal implications whatsoever. For example, patent infringement is illegal, but not a crime. Copyright infringement that doesn't meet certain statutory guidelines is not a crime, yet it is illegal.

Lot's of pretty bad things (but not all) that are the result of ordinary negligence rather than intent or gross negligence are not crimes, but are instead civil offenses.

If we were to determine that stealing a loaf of bread when motivated by hunger is in fact not a crime does this not impact the question of why people the steal?

I find this argument to be silly. Stealing a loaf of bread is either larceny or theft according to the laws of all fifty states. It's a crime regardless of the impact on the victim. If you want to justify the act as not being wrong, you'll need to find some way other than arguing that it is not a crime. Or you can get together with some of your buddies and petition the state legislature to make a change. Your legislature, and not you and your growling stomach, determine what constitutes a crime.

My wife recently told me about a former coworker of hers who was caught in the act of shoplifting a loaf of bread, a pack of bologna and a beer from a grocery store. As she exited the store, she saw the coworker in a distressed state being detained by store personnel.

My wife was able to convince the manager to let the man go by making the case that his act was clearly the act of a hungry man and by agreeing to pay for the meat and bread. But she drew the line at the beer, which she was not willing to pay for.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by ProtoTypical, posted 11-20-2011 8:18 PM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16041
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 132 of 270 (641638)
11-20-2011 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Buzsaw
11-20-2011 7:14 PM


Re: Cherry Picking Biblical Scripture
It appears that you either ignored the James fundamental regarding sins & forgiveness or didn't read it. It is what the true fundamentalist practices and believes.

Ah, yes, the True Fundamentalists. But I was just talking about Christian fundamentalists in general, not just the ones whom you consider to be "true".

Perhaps that our nation has more Biblical fundamentalists per capita than any others is why this nation has been the place where so many have sought for freedom, refuge and the good life.

No, I think it was the availability of freedom, refuge, and the good life.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Buzsaw, posted 11-20-2011 7:14 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Buzsaw, posted 11-21-2011 6:19 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1768
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(1)
Message 133 of 270 (641653)
11-21-2011 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Phat
11-20-2011 8:41 PM


Re: A Crime Is A Crime Is A
Phat writes:

What I mean is...our company would usually turn a blind eye to shoplifting, racking it up as a necessary expense of doing business...and would then go after labor as a bottom line expense! In other words, these people were indirectly affecting my job!

Sorry Phat, I didn't mean to derail the topic. I am not sure what my point is other than to look at the fuzzy edges of the issue.

What the corp. is doing to it's employees is also theft. The arbitrary distinction is that it is not illegal.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Phat, posted 11-20-2011 8:41 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 270 (641701)
11-21-2011 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Dr Adequate
11-20-2011 11:16 PM


Re: Why Do Some Steal?
Buzsaw writes:

It appears that you either ignored the James fundamental regarding sins & forgiveness or didn't read it. It is what the true fundamentalist practices and believes.

Ah, yes, the True Fundamentalists. But I was just talking about Christian fundamentalists in general, not just the ones whom you consider to be "true".

A fundi is a fundi is a fundi, one who goes by the book. All others need not apply as a fundi who fail to follow the fundamentals of the book.

Biblical fundies are givers, as per the book; not taker thieves. One who steals is not a Biblical fundi. It's the givers who made America what it is, not the takers.

Fundies apply both the forgiveness of sins with the James responsibilities applicable to the forgiveness. Many a thief has become a giver after a good dose of Biblical Holy Spirit conversion. I know some personally. In fact when my deceased dad was a young man, he worked as a mechanic for an oil company in Wyoming. When he left, he took a few of the company tools with him. After his conversion, some years later, he went to the company to confess and make restitution.

Dad then became a giver. He gave late model Buick to the Clause Family, a native American traveling evangelistic team. He was a giver up until his death. Now all of us, his six children are also givers, following the Biblical fundamentals.

Bottom line; as per topic, true Biblical fundamentalists are givers, more so than taker thieves.

Why do people steal? Because they are thieves. All secularists are not thieves, but most thieves are secularists, having no sense of accountability to a higher power.

Buzsaw writes:

Perhaps that our nation has more Biblical fundamentalists per capita than any others is why this nation has been the place where so many have sought for freedom, refuge and the good life.

No, I think it was the availability of freedom, refuge, and the good life.

But it was not atheists, secularists pagan, Muslims, Roman Catholics non fundies, et al, by and large, who made the nation free and prosperous. It has been immigrants form these nations who came for the freedom, refuge and good life to the land of Biblical minded majority citizenry.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-20-2011 11:16 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1112 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


(4)
Message 135 of 270 (641702)
11-21-2011 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Buzsaw
11-21-2011 6:19 PM


Re: Why Do Some Steal?
But it was not atheists, secularists pagan, Muslims, Roman Catholics non fundies, et al, by and large, who made the nation free and prosperous. It has been immigrants form these nations who came for the freedom, refuge and good life to the land of Biblical minded majority citizenry.

Fundamental attribution error.

The United States is not prosperous because of a "Biblical minded majority citizenry."

I'd question whether the US could even be considered to be prosperous at all right now.

But historically, the prosperity of the US has had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Biblical-anything. The US hit it's prosperity stride in the decades after WW2...during which it just so happened that the infrastructure of every other economic power had been devastated by war, while the US (which did sacrifice blood and treasure, but did not have battles fought on its own shores with the lone exception of Pearl Harbor) retained its entire economic machinery. Go figure, then, that the US was able to rise as the economic superpower, overpowering even the USSR (meaning the equal presence of "the Bomb" did nothing).

You're attributing success and prosperity to a factor that has been present in multiple other cultures without resulting in similar prosperity, and completely ignoring the real factors that allowed for the US to dominate late-20th-century economics.


The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers


This message is a reply to:
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