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Author Topic:   Evidence for a recent flood
Wollysaurus
Member (Idle past 4491 days)
Posts: 52
From: US
Joined: 08-25-2011


(4)
Message 135 of 404 (641422)
11-19-2011 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by pandion
11-19-2011 2:27 AM


Re: Evidence for a recent flood
The sad part is, this is an example of something that is very easy to learn about with the most basic of research outside of YEC circles. The most cursory Google search would give you enough information to conclude that the condition of preserved flesh had been grossly exaggerated in the YEC account. I suppose that the predators which fed upon the corpse were actually now-extinct marine reptiles; no doubt they did so when the corpse thawed out after being flash frozen by magical supercooled rain once the rising ocean covered Siberia, leaving no other evidence. The remains then somehow refroze instantly (after all, the creature was frozen standing up with flowers in its mouth while taking a dump, depending on what account you are presented with) after the pleseosaurs had their fill of delicious internal organs.
This tale was actually a part of a sermon I heard as a kid, which also included the revelation that the craters on the moon's surface are physical evidence of the war in heaven and Lucifer's fall.
To me, if you can swallow that sort of fairy tale without the tiny voice in your head telling you to dig a bit deeper, you're no different than someone who thinks they have to tear the heart out of a prisoner in order to make the sun rise. You just happen to have been born into another time and place, and a different mythos. I'm not saying all Christians buy into this sort of thing, but those that do certainly damage the religion as a whole's credibility.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by pandion, posted 11-19-2011 2:27 AM pandion has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Portillo, posted 11-20-2011 6:23 AM Wollysaurus has replied
 Message 140 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-20-2011 11:19 PM Wollysaurus has not replied

  
Wollysaurus
Member (Idle past 4491 days)
Posts: 52
From: US
Joined: 08-25-2011


(6)
Message 139 of 404 (641634)
11-20-2011 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Portillo
11-20-2011 6:23 AM


Re: Evidence for a recent flood
If "evidence" which is presented is absurd on its face, and can be readily (and quickly) debunked, commenting on the poor quality of that "evidence" and possibly ridiculing the individual's quality of research and sources should probably be expected.
A similar response would be appropriate if someone presented equally weak "evidence" attempting to debunk an aspect of the Christian faith. We should require that anyone's evidence, whatever position they are arguing, meet the same standards. Someone attempting to argue, for instance, that they know Jesus didn't exist *at all* should be expected to bring forth pretty strong evidence leading to that conclusion, and not be allowed to simply rest on the declaration.
But if someone brings something to the table along the lines of flash frozen mammoths, or human and dinosaur footprints co-mingled (ala the Paluxy tracks) or that Noah's Ark has been discovered (again), they shouldn't be surprised when they receive a broadside.
Coyote made a pretty simple request:
I feel the evidence does not support a global flood, but others obviously disagree. This thread is a place for them to present their evidence.
-emphasis mine
"Evidence" would not simply be assertions like "there was this super awesome cloud of vapor over the earth that totally rained down really, really, really cold water". That would actually just be a hypothesis. Evidence supporting that hypothesis (to my mind) would be something physical corroborating such a thing. We've got a pretty solid understanding of the Earth's climate through the ice ages, covering the period that should include the flood, so evidence brought forward would not only need to corroborate the flood story, but in fact negate much of what we think we know about history based on actual evidence and not simply the narrative of bronze age folklore. Frozen mammoths might be an attempt to do that (ignoring all the inherent problems) but it fails miserably. In fact, those critters confirm our view of natural history and climate.
Because the evidence fails does not mean that people are being treated unfairly or expected to "rehabilitate". If your evidence fails to meet any rational standard, it's your problem. Find something else to bring to the table.
Edited by Wollysaurus, : I don't speak HTML fluently
Edited by Wollysaurus, : No reason given.
Edited by Wollysaurus, : No reason given.
Edited by Wollysaurus, : Bad spellers of the world untie!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Portillo, posted 11-20-2011 6:23 AM Portillo has not replied

  
Wollysaurus
Member (Idle past 4491 days)
Posts: 52
From: US
Joined: 08-25-2011


Message 149 of 404 (641907)
11-23-2011 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Coyote
11-23-2011 11:34 AM


Re: Evidence for a recent flood
Not to mention the Flood story (if we're talking about a literal reading of Genesis) is nested with other problems like the Tower of Babel story and language.
EvC Forum: Languages and the Creationist account.
Either way, if you had a global flood which wiped out all life except what was on a boat, there would have to be evidence of all terrestrial life and human civilization radiating outward in a very fast pace starting at a specific point in history, the date depending on what fundamentalist website you visit.
The evidence for such a thing should be overwhelming. It wouldn't be a frozen mammoth here or a fossil there. It should be represented worldwide, in every dig, in every core sample, in every population study.
Dig down to a point, and you should find the same markers, complete with a jumble of everything from Dinosaur fossils mixed with Mastadons, horses, human tools and building foundations.
Unless, of course, this catastrophe which apparently involved collapsing vapor canopies, fountains of the deep, whole continents skateboarding along and dividing nearly instantaneously (in terms of geologic time) also cleaned up after itself to give the appearance of a planet and biological processes reaching into deep time.
Edited by Wollysaurus, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Coyote, posted 11-23-2011 11:34 AM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

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 Message 151 by IamJoseph, posted 11-24-2011 4:26 AM Wollysaurus has not replied

  
Wollysaurus
Member (Idle past 4491 days)
Posts: 52
From: US
Joined: 08-25-2011


(2)
Message 187 of 404 (642017)
11-24-2011 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Butterflytyrant
11-24-2011 9:36 PM


Joseph...
For the sake of simplicity, could you address the following:
1. To what time period do you assign the flood described in Genesis?
2. Please define the boundaries of this flood, based upon whatever evidence you have. For example: Global or Regional. If regional, where and to what extent?
3. What physical evidence do you have for this flood, outside the reference in written texts?
I don't necessarily have a problem with a regional, devastating flood giving rise to Babylonian and Hebraic flood myths (possibly including the mythology of even European peoples), but what evidence do you have -- again, outside of the fact that Genesis describes a flood -- showing that the event you accept actually happened?
I think the OP had the traditional "global" flood of Noah in mind, but I'd be interested in anything specific you have.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-24-2011 9:36 PM Butterflytyrant has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-24-2011 10:16 PM Wollysaurus has not replied

  
Wollysaurus
Member (Idle past 4491 days)
Posts: 52
From: US
Joined: 08-25-2011


Message 279 of 404 (642205)
11-26-2011 5:03 PM


Just put on your "flood glasses" and all becomes clear. At least according to this guy. He goes out of his way to attempt to describe, in "geologic terms", evidence for the Flood. Well, at least he tries. His summary sounds very sciency (starting at around 57 minutes if you want to skip there) and concludes, of course, that there is "startling" evidence that a global flood occurred. The evidence is "overwhelming" in his eyes. After all, there is just *too much* evidence out there for scientists to accept. In my meager readings about the history of geology and archaeology, biblical mythology dominated the fields (or their predecessors) for a long time, until finally it just became apparent that the Bible is no history book, and searching for the boundary between the antediluvian world and our own was a pointless exercise.
And a repteating pattern here: the speaker says there is all kinds of "evidence" but then simply goes on to describe a "mechanism" without actually citing evidence that this really occurred at any point. His is particularly funny... The magnetic field collapsed, allowing... Stuff... Yeah. Yeah.
No actual evidence is cited outside of half-formed hypothesis.
Here is the problem in relying on bronze age texts, themselves probably heavily affected by cultural diffusion via the Babylonian exile among other Semitic influences, as your guide to the world around you.
There was no global flood. Physical evidence for such would likely dominate the study of geology, not to mention be fundamental in our understanding of human civilization (leaving out physical difficulties with flooding the world). Was there a local or regional flood at the root of these myths? I think that is likely (particularly if you consider the possibility of the exiled Hebrews picking up the story from their Babylonian captors, with local myths reaching back into older civilizations still) however we still can't really answer the two most important questions: where and when?
And, to toss another iron on the fire, if there *had* been a global flood (purely for the sake of conversation), how would this in any way validate the Judaeo Christian mythology over, say, Ovid's account in _Metamorphosis_?

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by IamJoseph, posted 11-26-2011 5:46 PM Wollysaurus has not replied

  
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