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Author Topic:   Why Do People Steal?
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2153 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 136 of 270 (642410)
11-28-2011 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Modulous
11-18-2011 9:16 PM


Re: fraud as theft
Modulous writes:

I would argue that fraud is a type of theft.
Theft is acquiring something that you are not entitled to, from someone who is - regardless of the method of the acquisition.
Fraud is obtaining something that you are not entitled to, by deception. That is to say, fraud is theft by deception.

I think it could be if you stole everything without paying.
I am not big on entitlements. Is the store entitled to wealth by the deception of price gouging? Is some English breakfast tea worth 2GBP /$3.10 per pound at safeway? Its bulk tea, it aint good, I bet plain Lipton Black is better. I think it could be argued with your definition that the grocer is frauding the public on tea prices.
I think Fraud is part of capitalism. there is a sucker born every minute P.T. Barnum

Theft is the Sprite I drink while I am shopping, and then toss before I get to the checkout.

I don't like victimising people for personal profit

Not a fan of capitalism?

Dogmafood writes:

How many readers would engage in a cash transaction in order to avoid paying the tax? I know I would and I consider myself to be scrupulously honest. Is that theft?

I do all the time. My favorite Indian (south of P.R. China Indian) food restaurant charges $7 for the lunch buffet cash, and $8.50 if you charge or debit it. When I pay cash the guy puts the money in his pocket, instead of the cash register. I cant tell if they do this because they are cheap and dont like the fee to have a debit/charge machine, or if they are skimming off the top, not like I care though the yellow squishy chicken stuff is delicious.

DrJones* writes:

If by fraudulent means you pay $1 for something that is priced at $10 you are stealing $9 from the store.


Not if the cost of the product is $0.50, they are still making a profit, instead of the gouged deceptive (fraud) price of $10. I could say I out frauded a frauder.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Modulous, posted 11-18-2011 9:16 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by DrJones*, posted 11-28-2011 3:53 PM Artemis Entreri has not yet responded
 Message 139 by Phat, posted 11-28-2011 4:11 PM Artemis Entreri has responded
 Message 140 by crashfrog, posted 11-28-2011 4:45 PM Artemis Entreri has acknowledged this reply
 Message 145 by Modulous, posted 11-29-2011 12:46 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2153 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


(1)
Message 137 of 270 (642411)
11-28-2011 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by NoNukes
11-20-2011 6:09 PM


Re: Make up your own definition.
NoNukes writes:

Traffic offenses make poor examples because they are usually infractions.


What about firearm offenses?

What about things that are legal in one place but not in another? For instance open carry in VA is legal, but not in say MD. When I wade fish the Potomac River I open carry a Glock 34, and keep it loaded with 9mm snake shot, for self defense against some of the venomous herps that live on the river bank. No Part of the water exists in Virginia, Maryland has all of the water rights of the river (except in DC and then DC has the rights). If I am standing in ankle deep (6 inches, 15.24cm) of water on the VA side (south bank), I am open carrying a firearm in Maryland. Can I just hop back and forth in an out of the water and commit a crime 50 times over and over again (and a firearms crime at that)? My guess is no, because its not criminal, though technically against the law.

When I lived in Missouri I had a .357 loaded in the glove box 24/7 (perfectly legal if you are 21, not crazy, and not a felon), and then drive to a family members house in the Peoples Republic of Illinois (where it is against the law to protect yourself), was I supposed to stop in the middle of the interstate (when I crossed the state line) and move my firearm to my trunk in accordance with IL law? Because I never did. LEO has no right to search my vehicle, so why change to the trunk?

Neither of which I would consider criminal.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by NoNukes, posted 11-20-2011 6:09 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by NoNukes, posted 11-28-2011 5:08 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1725
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 138 of 270 (642415)
11-28-2011 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Artemis Entreri
11-28-2011 3:03 PM


Re: fraud as theft
Not if the cost of the product is $0.50, they are still making a profit, instead of the gouged deceptive (fraud) price of $10.

The cost of the product to the store is irrelevant. By fraudulently not paying the full price you are stealing from the store. Any non-criminal customer would pay the full price for the product, by not paying the full price you are depriving the store of money, you are stealing through fraudulent means.

I could say I out frauded a frauder.

You could say that, it wouldn't be true, but you could say it.

Not a fan of capitalism?

Are you? By avoiding paying the full price for a product you are denying the store it's profit on that product.

Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.


God separated the races and attempting to mix them is like attempting to mix water with diesel fuel.- Buzsaw Message 177

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-28-2011 3:03 PM Artemis Entreri has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11320
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 139 of 270 (642418)
11-28-2011 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Artemis Entreri
11-28-2011 3:03 PM


Theft and Entitlement
AE writes:

Not a fan of capitalism?

I grew up privileged. My father came from a poor farm family, joined the navy and helped win World War II, then came home and went into business with my Uncle selling houses. They made a fair profit on each house, but only to raise families and pay the bills. Capitalism was all I ever knew, and I saw stories of how the US had it better than other countries, due, I figured, to the right God and the right intelligence. I never dreamed that capitalism had a seamier side until the past few years, and am now a fan of limited socialism.

As an American, I quite naturally felt that I had a birthright to prosperity, and the leveling of the global economy is testing my altruism, faith, and ideas of what I am and am not entitled to.

My friend, a staunch Milton Friedman Republican, tells me that I will have to compete and learn new skills in order to hold my own in the new order, and I sadly agree...though I fear that many of my countrymen will try and pick a fight...if only they figure out who it is they are fighting. Once they find out it is themselves, they will wish to high heaven for the good old days!

Perhaps my country stole a lot to get where it was...and now I see that the wealthier people wish to distance the rest of us and leave us competing with a rising hungry world.

Would I steal tea? No, I have no right to set my own prices.

I still believe in the idea of rules, even if they favor others than myself...though I should never have to be poor.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-28-2011 3:03 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-29-2011 12:43 PM Phat has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 140 of 270 (642420)
11-28-2011 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Artemis Entreri
11-28-2011 3:03 PM


Re: fraud as theft
Is the store entitled to wealth by the deception of price gouging?

No, but they're entitled to set the price at which they choose to sell it to you, and you're entitled to either accept that price or walk out. There's no principle that entitles you to choose a lower price on their behalf.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-28-2011 3:03 PM Artemis Entreri has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 270 (642425)
11-28-2011 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Artemis Entreri
11-28-2011 3:05 PM


Re: Make up your own definition.
Neither of which I would consider criminal.

It should have been clear from my post that it doesn't matter what you or I consider criminal. The state legislature decides what actions are criminal. Unless you act on your disagreement by getting like minded citizens to change the law, then you are a criminal.

Based on your description of your activities, you are an un-indicted criminal. If you really cared about not being a criminal, it would have been simply enough to put your gun in the trunk before you departed for Illinois. I don't expect to hear complaints from you about federal law interfering with states' rights ever again.

What's at risk for you is getting convicted of a senseless crime that could cost you the right to carry a firearm for a long time. So much for the fiction that gun advocates obey the law.

Edited by NoNukes, : change "left the house" to departed because the former is stupid.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-28-2011 3:05 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-29-2011 12:25 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2153 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 142 of 270 (642493)
11-29-2011 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by NoNukes
11-28-2011 5:08 PM


Re: Make up your own definition.
It should have been clear from my post that it doesn't matter what you or I consider criminal. The state legislature decides what actions are criminal. Unless you act on your disagreement by getting like minded citizens to change the law, then you are a criminal.

nope

Based on your description of your activities, you are an un-indicted criminal. If you really cared about not being a criminal, it would have been simply enough to put your gun in the trunk before you departed for Illinois. I don't expect to hear complaints from you about federal law interfering with states' rights ever again.

i like to protect myself, and since there is no reason to stop me or search me, I am protected from obeying they law by the constitution. what happens in the USA when a law conflicts with the constitution? the law goes.

So much for the fiction that gun advocates obey the law.

gun advocates are the same a free speech advocates, and advocate of the bill of rights and the Constitution. They are called Americans, and I am one of them. I would have though you would have understood this living in such a wonderful state like North Carolina.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by NoNukes, posted 11-28-2011 5:08 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by crashfrog, posted 11-29-2011 12:44 PM Artemis Entreri has acknowledged this reply

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2153 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 143 of 270 (642495)
11-29-2011 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Phat
11-28-2011 4:11 PM


Re: Theft and Entitlement
I never dreamed that capitalism had a seamier side until the past few years, and am now a fan of limited socialism.

it's a dog eat dog world.

sorry to hear you like socialism, "that's a bummer man"

My friend, a staunch Milton Friedman Republican, tells me that I will have to compete and learn new skills in order to hold my own in the new order, and I sadly agree...though I fear that many of my countrymen will try and pick a fight...if only they figure out who it is they are fighting. Once they find out it is themselves, they will wish to high heaven for the good old days!

I always score near Milton on the political tests, but I don't consider myself a republican anymore.

we are fighting ourselves, but I think we always have been, I do not think that much has changed or there ever were "good old days", I just think we are privy to more communication, more data, more information, all the time. I wonder if there is going to be a fight or not, it seems evident, but most of us never had to, and the thought of giving everything up for a chance a something better is a gamble I am sure few would subscribe to anymore. I don't really know.

Perhaps my country stole a lot to get where it was...and now I see that the wealthier people wish to distance the rest of us and leave us competing with a rising hungry world.

not sure what we stole. the wealthy have always been that way.

Would I steal tea? No, I have no right to set my own prices.

I don't steal tea either, I just pay less for it. [j/k]

no seriously I don't steal tea, it was a scenario that I made up so that we could have a discussion about stealing, thanks for not being an ass like some of the other DBs on here. I picked tea over other products because there are posters here from the UK, and when I think of the British I think of tea drinkers. I thought if I choose something common between us, then it would be a topic all could jump in on.

I have no right to set my own prices.

I still believe in the idea of rules, even if they favor others than myself

don't hate the player, hate the game.

ever shop at a farmers market, or an organic farm market (hugely popular with all the yuppies out here)? when it says $0.50 per cabbage, only n00bz pay that price. that is the asking price, they'll totally take $0.40 per cabbage if you by 5 cabbages. It's not a rule as much as it is them trying for a price and seeing how many n00bz will pay that price.

though I should never have to be poor.

depends where you live. poor in the city sucks, poor in the country aint that bad.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Phat, posted 11-28-2011 4:11 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by jar, posted 11-29-2011 1:09 PM Artemis Entreri has acknowledged this reply
 Message 155 by Phat, posted 12-01-2011 7:07 AM Artemis Entreri has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 270 (642496)
11-29-2011 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Artemis Entreri
11-29-2011 12:25 PM


Re: Make up your own definition.
Good luck with those arguments, Clarence Darrow.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-29-2011 12:25 PM Artemis Entreri has acknowledged this reply

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 145 of 270 (642498)
11-29-2011 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Artemis Entreri
11-28-2011 3:03 PM


profiting as theft
I think it could be {theft} if you stole everything without paying.

It can be if you stole anything without paying. I've never seen a bank robber try and justify stealing $1,000 by suggesting that he didn't steal all the money in the bank, and if they did I'd think they were wrong, and possibly foolish or insane.

Is the store entitled to wealth by the deception of price gouging?

It is as entitled to set its prices as you are to refuse to pay them. But you aren't entitled to their property.

If they are engaged in price gouging then that may be considered unfair business, and in the USA it is criminal. But it is defined as essentially raising prices during an emergency on essential items that the supplier has near monopoly access to.

quote:
Price gouging may be charged when a supplier of essential goods or services sharply raises the prices asked in anticipation of or during a civil emergency, or when it cancels or dishonors contracts in order to take advantage of an increase in prices related to such an emergency. The model case is a retailer who increases the price of existing stocks of milk and bread when a hurricane is imminent.

from wiki. I don't think profiting on tea counts as price gouging - though depending on your local economics it might be considered profiteering. For example, if your shop conspires with other businesses to fix the price of tea, meaning there is no point in shifting to a competitor, that would be wrong.

I think Fraud is part of capitalism

Exploitation and profit are part of capitalism, fraud isn't - even though it can exist (and I concede that will exist) within capitalist systems. But fraud will exist within any economic system, capitalism is not unique in this regard. I don't think setting prices high is fraud since it is not deceptive.

It would be fraudulent if they charged your credit card for more than the displayed price.

Theft is the Sprite I drink while I am shopping, and then toss before I get to the checkout.

That is theft, yes.

Not a fan of capitalism?

Not a fan of capitalism when it victimises people, no. I can't say I'm endeared to exploitation, either. I'm in favour of a capitalism with regulations intended to minimise the harm it causes. This is because alternatives seem to cause more harm.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-28-2011 3:03 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-29-2011 3:51 PM Modulous has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 146 of 270 (642501)
11-29-2011 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Artemis Entreri
11-29-2011 12:43 PM


Re: Theft and Entitlement
So the questions are, "Why are you a thief and why do you seem to want to brag about being a thief?"

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-29-2011 12:43 PM Artemis Entreri has acknowledged this reply

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2153 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 147 of 270 (642530)
11-29-2011 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Modulous
11-29-2011 12:46 PM


Re: profiting as theft
It can be if you stole anything without paying. I've never seen a bank robber try and justify stealing $1,000 by suggesting that he didn't steal all the money in the bank, and if they did I'd think they were wrong, and possibly foolish or insane.

that is different than what a stated. I am still paying for the tea, just at a lower than advertised price.

It is as entitled to set its prices as you are to refuse to pay them.

yes I have refused, and offered another price, and they except it everytime.

For example, if your shop conspires with other businesses to fix the price of tea, meaning there is no point in shifting to a competitor, that would be wrong.

that would be playing the game. all the gasoline (sorry i forget what you call it, but fuel for your automobile) is the same price at every gas station in town. I could call them out on profiteering, but one its hard to prove, and two you will get no where with it.

It would be fraudulent if they charged your credit card for more than the displayed price.

I don't have one of those.

Not a fan of capitalism when it victimises people, no. I can't say I'm endeared to exploitation, either. I'm in favour of a capitalism with regulations intended to minimise the harm it causes. This is because alternatives seem to cause more harm.

I think it always victimizes people, but yeah its the best we got so far.

I have another question (its not a set up):

My roommates GF is a coupon fan. Coupon A, states "save 50% on product X when you buy two", she tries to purchase one, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't but it always stops the line, and if the store is really busy then they say ok here is your 50% off on product x, thank you for shopping (move along).

Is that also fraud? if not how is it different from the scenario i described with the tea?

sounds like a decent hustle to me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Modulous, posted 11-29-2011 12:46 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Modulous, posted 11-29-2011 4:04 PM Artemis Entreri has responded
 Message 149 by Taz, posted 11-29-2011 7:58 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 148 of 270 (642532)
11-29-2011 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Artemis Entreri
11-29-2011 3:51 PM


Re: profiting as theft
that is different than what a stated. I am still paying for the tea, just at a lower than advertised price.

But the point remains, that you stole only some tea does not prevent it from being theft.

yes I have refused, and offered another price, and they except it everytime.

Except it was achieved by deception, making it fraud.

My roommates GF is a coupon fan. Coupon A, states "save 50% on product X when you buy two", she tries to purchase one, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't but it always stops the line, and if the store is really busy then they say ok here is your 50% off on product x, thank you for shopping (move along).

Is that also fraud?

Yes, that might be fraud, if deception is employed. But from the way you describe it, no deception is in play. So it is more properly classed as a con or a crappy scam, rather than fraud.

sounds like a decent hustle to me.

Sounds like a petty hustle to me. Really, a discount that you aren't technically entitled to? Not exactly the work of the work of an expert grifter, is it?

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-29-2011 3:51 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-30-2011 1:07 PM Modulous has responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1216 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 149 of 270 (642579)
11-29-2011 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Artemis Entreri
11-29-2011 3:51 PM


Re: profiting as theft
A little side OT question. I haven't been around much lately because of business. I could have sworn you (AE) was this ultra-conservative, anti-gay jesus freak. Have you changed or am I thinking of someone else?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-29-2011 3:51 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-30-2011 1:00 PM Taz has not yet responded

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2153 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 150 of 270 (642668)
11-30-2011 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Taz
11-29-2011 7:58 PM


Re: profiting as theft
A little side OT question. I haven't been around much lately because of business. I could have sworn you (AE) was this ultra-conservative, anti-gay jesus freak. Have you changed or am I thinking of someone else?

I have many roles. it depends on the thread. I am the Devil's Advocate. Most of the time I play the heel, because it's easier to debate something when you see where the topic is going, but its all for fun, learning, and debating/discussing. I can take either side, but it is not my goal to piss anyone off (some here are very sensitive though).

some people think this means I am a troll, I think I am merely discussing a topic online. I am conservative (though not a NeoCon), and I am do like Jesus, but I am not anti-gay. I would think of my self as more of a libertarian conservative.

I will say this, living on the East Coast in the Washington DC Metro area for 3.5 years has made me a little more left leaning than I was before, but I really just think it has opened me up to new ideas different POVs, and more data.

Artemis Entreri is not my real name: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis_Entreri


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Taz, posted 11-29-2011 7:58 PM Taz has not yet responded

  
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