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Author Topic:   Why Do People Steal?
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2154 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 151 of 270 (642669)
11-30-2011 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Modulous
11-29-2011 4:04 PM


Re: profiting as theft
Yes, that might be fraud, if deception is employed. But from the way you describe it, no deception is in play. So it is more properly classed as a con or a crappy scam, rather than fraud.

great more confusing semantics. fraud is different than theft but a type of it, and then there are Cons and Scams which if combined with deception (even though deceptions i part of cons and scams), then becomes a fraud too.

so it depends on the "intent" of the the person with the coupon? If my intent is deception for a better price, then I am committing fraud, but if ignorance is at hand and I merely do not read the fine print, then I am not committing fraud.

Sounds like a petty hustle to me. Really, a discount that you aren't technically entitled to? Not exactly the work of the work of an expert grifter, is it?

Seems no different than getting cheap tea to me.

or driving to another state to purchase cheaper tobacco, or cheaper liquor, or cheaper gasoline.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Modulous, posted 11-29-2011 4:04 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Modulous, posted 11-30-2011 2:18 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 29 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 152 of 270 (642680)
11-30-2011 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Artemis Entreri
11-30-2011 1:07 PM


Re: profiting as theft
fraud is different than theft but a type of it

Fraud is not different from theft. It is a type of theft.

and then there are Cons and Scams which if combined with deception (even though deceptions i part of cons and scams), then becomes a fraud too.

I'm not sure what's confusing. Fraud is theft by deception. Scams may or may not rely on deception. The scam you depicted relies on human tendency to not get too picky about small things during busy hours (if it is judged more important to serve lots of customers than to hold up selling stuff to argue about Ts & Cs of a minor coupon).

If you had no idea it was against Ts & Cs that wouldn't be fraud or theft as far as I can tell.

so it depends on the "intent" of the the person with the coupon? If my intent is deception for a better price, then I am committing fraud, but if ignorance is at hand and I merely do not read the fine print, then I am not committing fraud.

It isn't about your intent, no. It is about your actual actions. If you attempted to deceive the cashier that the coupon applied to single item purchases, that would be fraudulent. If instead you just relied on their making the pragmatic decision to not argue in the given context, it's probably a non-fraudulent scam.

Seems no different than getting cheap tea to me.

But you obtained that cheap tea using deception, making it fraud. The coupon scam doesn't rely on deceiving anybody. That's the difference.

You might argue that they are morally equal, but they are different types of crime nevertheless.

or driving to another state to purchase cheaper tobacco, or cheaper liquor, or cheaper gasoline.

I don't think there is any crime involved in purchasing things where they are cheaper, unless you are evading taxes. Here in the UK, we have 'booze runs' where we go to France and buy lots of alcohol since the taxes on alcohol are much lower there. There are limits for how much you are allowed to bring back with you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-30-2011 1:07 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-30-2011 7:51 PM Modulous has responded

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2154 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 153 of 270 (642715)
11-30-2011 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Modulous
11-30-2011 2:18 PM


Re: profiting as theft
It isn't about your intent, no. It is about your actual actions. If you attempted to deceive the cashier that the coupon applied to single item purchases, that would be fraudulent. If instead you just relied on their making the pragmatic decision to not argue in the given context, it's probably a non-fraudulent scam.

that is the same plan as the cheap tea scam. banking that the cashier either 1. doesn't notice, or 2. doesn't care because the loss of goods is less than $10

I don't think there is any crime involved in purchasing things where they are cheaper, unless you are evading taxes. Here in the UK, we have 'booze runs' where we go to France and buy lots of alcohol since the taxes on alcohol are much lower there. There are limits for how much you are allowed to bring back with you.

that is exactly what i am talking about.

if I bought 20 cartons of cigarettes in KY (because its cheap there), and was caught bringing them into Illinois, I would probably get into trouble. one or two cartons and they aint even going to look. Though I would love to drive to Illinois and buy a couple cases of 9mm (it is about 30% cheaper there).

where do you consider straw purchases?

Say you cross the pond and you want a gun. I go buy one, and then sell it to you in a private sale. private sales are legal here. but my intent to purchase for a private sale to a foreigner (and you kind of look like a pirate) is not. I guess this falls under fraud?

Edited by Artemis Entreri, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Modulous, posted 11-30-2011 2:18 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Modulous, posted 12-01-2011 6:24 AM Artemis Entreri has responded
 Message 160 by NoNukes, posted 12-01-2011 9:34 AM Artemis Entreri has acknowledged this reply

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 29 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 154 of 270 (642732)
12-01-2011 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Artemis Entreri
11-30-2011 7:51 PM


Re: profiting as theft
that is the same plan as the cheap tea scam. banking that the cashier either 1. doesn't notice, or 2. doesn't care because the loss of goods is less than $10

That may be part of it, but since the tea scam specifically utilizes deception, that makes it fraud. Whereas the coupon scam does not involve deception. Yes, the tea scam also plays on cashier apathy, but it also involves deceiving the apathetic cashier.

Say you cross the pond and you want a gun. I go buy one, and then sell it to you in a private sale. private sales are legal here. but my intent to purchase for a private sale to a foreigner (and you kind of look like a pirate) is not. I guess this falls under fraud?

I don't know enough about gun laws to tell. I'm not sure that profit was made by deception, in the sense that would be construed as fraud. But maybe your purchase could be considered fraudulent if you claimed it was for personal use or something like that as a means to acquire the weapon.

As for looking like a pirate, it's the glasses isn't it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-30-2011 7:51 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Artemis Entreri, posted 12-01-2011 1:56 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11322
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 155 of 270 (642736)
12-01-2011 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Artemis Entreri
11-29-2011 12:43 PM


Re: Theft and Entitlement
quote:
don't hate the player, hate the game.

And yes, I can identify with the poor people who steal from my store. They have nothing in life. To them, the store has more than enough...and in fact even figures shoplifting into its bottom line.

I would differentiate some poor mother on welfare who needs zinc ointment for her infant son and is flat broke until payday with some thug hustla who simply wants to boost (steal for a fence) several hundred dollars worth of product in order to put gasoline in his Mercedes, which he also bought with illegal drug money.

As far as the store being a fraudster itself, keep in mind that each level of individuals in the company have already figured their wages into the equation and no extra money is being made. The CEO takes their cut first, giving much of it to the stockholders and paying themselves an excessive(in my view) salary.

The middle managers have a bonus, which is gained through controlling store expenses...which includes labor, much to my disillusionment with free market capitalism.

Then we employees, belonging to a labor union, negotiated our wages with an uncaring corporation who would just as soon pay some noobs $8.00 an hour to do badly what we do well.

There is no fraud in capitalism. It is cut and dried. Everyone gets a cut. The customer is bending the rules if they make their own prices. Typical capitalist logic would say to shop elsewhere, and the main reason that I don't like shoplifters is because the corporation then takes the loss out of my hard earned labor wage and hours.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-29-2011 12:43 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by onifre, posted 12-01-2011 8:32 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 164 by Artemis Entreri, posted 12-01-2011 2:07 PM Phat has responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 876 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 156 of 270 (642743)
12-01-2011 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Phat
12-01-2011 7:07 AM


Re: Theft and Entitlement
some thug hustla who simply wants to boost (steal for a fence) several hundred dollars worth of product in order to put gasoline in his Mercedes, which he also bought with illegal drug money.

This is the whitest thing I've read here in a while.

A thug hustla (aka black guy) shoplifting to pay for the gas in his Mercedes? Really? When does that happen?

I understand it's a fake scenario for your example, but it's very telling. It seems like you only accept shoplifting from someone from a lower class than you (mom on welfare) than from someone who you don't think should be in a higher class than you but is due to drug money... Why?

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Phat, posted 12-01-2011 7:07 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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frako
Member
Posts: 2792
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 157 of 270 (642745)
12-01-2011 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by onifre
12-01-2011 8:32 AM


Re: Theft and Entitlement
A thug hustla (aka black guy) shoplifting to pay for the gas in his Mercedes? Really? When does that happen?

Well it could be a gypsy except he would not be shoplifting but stealing your copper gutter <--( not sure if its the right word for the thingy that channels rainwater from your roof ). He would then sell the copper to put fuel in his Mercedes and yes he does drive a Mercedes.

added by edit:

Funny story i haveto share

a while back a family of gypsies tried to steal copper wire they forgot to check if it was still connected, so like in some cartoon the first grabs the wire and is getting electrocuted so then the second grabs him and also gets electrocuted 3 more follow before they call for help when i was reading the news article that had this story i was pissing my pants in laughter they all got treated for electrical burns and arrested for stealing.

Edited by frako, : No reason given.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by onifre, posted 12-01-2011 8:32 AM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by NoNukes, posted 12-01-2011 9:23 AM frako has not yet responded
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 270 (642748)
12-01-2011 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by frako
12-01-2011 8:42 AM


Re: Theft and Entitlement
Well it could be a gypsy except he would not be shoplifting but stealing your copper gutter <--( not sure if its the right word for the thingy that channels rainwater from your roof ). He would then sell the copper to put fuel in his Mercedes and yes he does drive a Mercedes.

Gutter is the right word.

If my gutters were made of copper, I might well be tempted to take down my own gutters down and put some aluminum ones up. Around my area, copper gutters seem to be less common, but people still manage to find other sources of copper to purloin, such as air conditioners and copper plumbing.

I have heard at least one story of a person in the US getting electrocuted in an attempt to steal copper from a neighborhood substation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by frako, posted 12-01-2011 8:42 AM frako has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Rahvin, posted 12-01-2011 2:01 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 876 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 159 of 270 (642751)
12-01-2011 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by frako
12-01-2011 8:42 AM


Re: Theft and Entitlement
Gypsy!

Not many here in the US.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by frako, posted 12-01-2011 8:42 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 160 of 270 (642753)
12-01-2011 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Artemis Entreri
11-30-2011 7:51 PM


Re: profiting as theft
Say you cross the pond and you want a gun. I go buy one, and then sell it to you in a private sale. private sales are legal here. but my intent to purchase for a private sale to a foreigner (and you kind of look like a pirate) is not. I guess this falls under fraud?

That would not be fraud. You simply would have committed a gun offense.

One misconception about criminal statutes is that when the statute includes words like knowingly, and intentionally, that you are safe because the state can never prove your state of mind.

The reality is that people get convicted of violating such statutes all of the time because direct evidence of the defendant's intention is never required. That state does not have to show that you told someone of your intentions. Intent is proven or demonstrated using the facts and circumstances in a case, and a jury decides, almost always based on indirect or circumstantial evidence that you surely must have known/intended to do act X.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-30-2011 7:51 PM Artemis Entreri has acknowledged this reply

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2792
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 161 of 270 (642759)
12-01-2011 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by onifre
12-01-2011 9:32 AM


Re: Theft and Entitlement
Not many here in the US.

Well in my region the problem is they never got civilized like the ones in the Maribor region where you cant tell a gypsy from a regular Joe.

In my region its like the law does not exist for them none of them have drivers licenses and all of them drive. They steal loads of iron and copper but most crimes dont get reported because the value is so low but i got one that was out on parole back to prison because he stole 3 euros worth of old iron lol, i did it out of principle i could have done worse and told the "king" of the gypsies in my region a friend of mine and a relatively civilized man and he would probably wake up in the hospital.
Their kids hardly go to school even mandatory primary school .....


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

This message is a reply to:
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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2154 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 162 of 270 (642774)
12-01-2011 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Modulous
12-01-2011 6:24 AM


Re: profiting as theft
That may be part of it, but since the tea scam specifically utilizes deception, that makes it fraud. Whereas the coupon scam does not involve deception. Yes, the tea scam also plays on cashier apathy, but it also involves deceiving the apathetic cashier.

Ok fair enough. I concede. I feel like this horse is dead, and I just broke my bat on its neck.

I don't know enough about gun laws to tell. I'm not sure that profit was made by deception, in the sense that would be construed as fraud. But maybe your purchase could be considered fraudulent if you claimed it was for personal use or something like that as a means to acquire the weapon.

I never considered profit to be part of it, so I dont know now either.

As for looking like a pirate, it's the glasses isn't it?

LOL. Yep, those glasses are a dead giveaway.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Modulous, posted 12-01-2011 6:24 AM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

  
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1112 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 163 of 270 (642775)
12-01-2011 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by NoNukes
12-01-2011 9:23 AM


Re: Theft and Entitlement
Around my area, copper gutters seem to be less common, but people still manage to find other sources of copper to purloin, such as air conditioners and copper plumbing.

When I worked at a previous job, we used to have daytime break-ins at our warehouse where thieves would walk in like they worked there, load up a truck with copper piping and other parts, and drive off.

They would also show up at job sites after the construction crews left and strip out any copper.

They're pretty bold, and apparently they must be making some decent money on the stuff.

Edited by Rahvin, : No reason given.


The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers


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 Message 158 by NoNukes, posted 12-01-2011 9:23 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2154 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 164 of 270 (642776)
12-01-2011 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Phat
12-01-2011 7:07 AM


Re: Theft and Entitlement
And yes, I can identify with the poor people who steal from my store. They have nothing in life. To them, the store has more than enough...and in fact even figures shoplifting into its bottom line.
I would differentiate some poor mother on welfare who needs zinc ointment for her infant son and is flat broke until payday with some thug hustla who simply wants to boost (steal for a fence) several hundred dollars worth of product in order to put gasoline in his Mercedes, which he also bought with illegal drug money.

That thug hustla is also probably broke, and unemployed as well. BTW I think the only kind of illegal money is counterfeit money.

Life isToo $hort. You gotta get in where you fit in.

Just to let you know, those guys lease those Mercedes, they dont buy them.

Onifre writes:

A thug hustla (aka black guy) shoplifting to pay for the gas in his Mercedes? Really? When does that happen?


I have never heard of it happening either. I have seen people selling their link cards at the gas station for gasoline (http://www.dhs.state.il.us/page.aspx?item=30371), but I dont see the criminality in that either.

Edited by Artemis Entreri, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Phat, posted 12-01-2011 7:07 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Phat, posted 12-01-2011 2:29 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11322
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 165 of 270 (642778)
12-01-2011 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Artemis Entreri
12-01-2011 2:07 PM


Re: Theft and Entitlement
Onifre writes:

It seems like you only accept shoplifting from someone from a lower class than you (mom on welfare) than from someone who you don't think should be in a higher class than you but is due to drug money... Why?

Because I've earned my position in life through hard work and a decent, honest family...and I can't respect or even stand someone who hustles their way to the top...be they lower or higher economic class initially. Granted the drug dealer metaphor was a bit cliche, but I've seen drug dealers(suspected) around our store and they and their damn "grips of cash" annoy me to no end. Mind you, I feel the same ire towards wealthy trustafarian children of the upper middle class. I say if I gotta play the game by the rules, everybodymust do likewise...or lock em up and/or shoot em!

frako writes:

a while back a family of gypsies tried to steal copper wire they forgot to check if it was still connected, so like in some cartoon the first grabs the wire and is getting electrocuted so then the second grabs him and also gets electrocuted 3 more follow before they call for help when i was reading the news article that had this story i was pissing my pants in laughter they all got treated for electrical burns and arrested for stealing.

I love it! Serves them right! I will say it again...I can't stand anyone cutting in line ahead of me who didnt earn their spot through hard work and honesty.

frako writes:

Their kids hardly go to school even mandatory primary school .....

Which is why they are all lowlife thieves. One could use drug money to fund an education, couldn't they?

ArtemisEntreri writes:

Life isToo $hort. You gotta get in where you fit in.

Even competition has to have some sort of rules. This whole idea of survival of the strongest and smartest in the absence of any ethical or moral standards is the reason why My Dad fought World War II and came home, working honestly and diligently to give his kids a chance at a better future...honestly!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Artemis Entreri, posted 12-01-2011 2:07 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-01-2011 3:04 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
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